RIA's "1902 Carbine"

[Michael Zeleny]

I am preserving for posterity RIA's description of this "1902 Carbine", previously "quaranteed" as "100% CORRECT and MINT ORIGINAL" by the world-renowned Luger expert, the late Ralph Shattuck.

[Kitkat041836]

This is not a 02 Luger Carbine.It does not have a dish toggel and
they did not make a American Eagel 02 Carbine even if some say they did.
Thanks,George

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Kitkat041836

This is not a 02 Luger Carbine.

You think?

[Norme]

I miss Ralph, he boldly went where no man had gone before. He had panache.
Regards, Norm

[DavidJayUden]

OK, for those of us "unwashed masses", what is it? Pick it apart for us.
dju

[Vlim]

The Mauser letter is interesting, but has no link to the gun shown here.

The letter simply states that, in the mid 1980s, Mauser was trying to buy back guns that had been 'liberated' from the original Mauser weapons collection for display in the Oberndorf Weapons Museum.

They were interested in purchasing a 2-barrel and 4-barrel FLAK cannon

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Vlim

The Mauser letter is interesting, but has no link to the gun shown here.

Except in so far as RIA included it in the lot, all the better to beguile American monoglots.

[Ben M.]

okay so for us mere mortals

monoglot = a.,n. (person) knowing one language only; a. written in one language only.

[cirelaw]

I cant believe no one noticed new style toggel!!!Looks like my 1920 model carbine. ~~~ Eric

[lugersrkewl]

this is a lugerman.com restoration with electric penciled initials.
seriously though it is mint and going in my genuine finish photo file.

[cirelaw]

He isn't that good!~~Eric

[Ron Wood]

RIA was careful to describe this carbine as a “custom”…reading between the lines that indicates that it is not factory original. According to them it was made as a companion to a carbine that was sold at the previous auction;

The carbine sold at the previous auction was serial number 10110.C. and was a totally authentic Georg Luger supervised transitional piece. It was created from a 1900 Luger frame or a converted 1902 Carbine. The conversion consisted of replacing the laminated flat mainspring with a coil spring and modifying the frame by inserting a web to support the bell crank assembly required for the coil spring. The toggle assembly, bearing the distinctive GL marking, is of the new model with flat sided toggle knobs and with the transitional breechblock found in the 1903/04 Navy and French Lugers. The toggle latch on the frame was machined off even with the frame rail. The extractor has the unique narrow “ears” found only on these very early “New Model” Lugers.. Since the coil spring provided sufficient strength to operate the heavy barrel/receiver and forestock, the auxiliary spring assembly in the forestock was removed and the recess carefully filled in with a wood insert that was so well matched that it is barely discernable.

At the request of Mr. Bob McBratney, the owner of both carbines, a group of us had the opportunity to do a detailed tear-down and assessment of serial number 10112.C. at last year’s Louisville show. Mr. McBratney had contacted me earlier seeking my thoughts on the carbines and had his son, Morgan, coordinate the inspection of the carbine at the show. Bob did not want the piece auctioned off as a “true and correct” piece as stated by Ralph Shattuck if it was not. The inspection quickly revealed that the piece was a total non-factory creation. The toggle train is a standard 1906 New Model configuration and the frame web insert is not nearly as finely crafted as the authentic 10110.C. example. The barrel serial number is pantographed rather than stamped. At best it is a “custom” piece, at worst it is a deliberate fake. A representative of RIA was at the inspection and the auction description was carefully crafted to avoid any positive statement of authenticity. It is a very nicely crafted piece but not of the pedigree of 10110.C.

We will never know if Ralph was deceived by the piece himself or if he reported it as "true and correct" knowing it was not. It takes more than a casual look to spot the discrepancies.

[DavidJayUden]

Ron:
Now that was exactly what I was going to say...
dju

[Edward Tinker]

That's a shame, very nice looking gun....

[cirelaw]

'Res Ipsa Loquitor' "The Facts Speak For Themselves" Old English common Law! ~~Eric

[Norme]

I'm rather disappointed with the folks at Rock Island Auction. The repeated use of the word "custom", rather than the words "reproduction" or "fake", in the description, seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to deceive. One would think that an auctioneer who charges buyers a 17% commission, would feel some responsibility to protect their interests.
Regards, Norm

[cirelaw]

I might have missed, Was the sale price listed?

[Ben M.]

purchased in 1989 for $ 50,000 when the shattuck letters indicate it might be a million dollar gun. maybe just some salesmanship to convince a buyer he was walking into the deal of a lifetime???

interesting that even in 2001 the owner was asking others for help to nail this carbine as possibly being teddy roosevelts gun.

auction starting at $ 15,000 for a custom fabricated gun might be reasonable. will see if this one sells and for how much. i would guess paying a current gun smith to make one today would be that or alot more.

i do think the current owner and his familys actions to figure out what the gun is and is not is full of character and it is nice to see the gun is being sold as not being a real piece made by dwm. it is unfortunate he was taken in 1989, but his actions today have courage and respect.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

auction starting at $ 15,000 for a custom fabricated gun might be reasonable. will see if this one sells and for how much. i would guess paying a current gun smith to make one today would be that or alot more.

A proper carbine replica can be had in Germany for a quarter of that price.

[Vlim]

Hey, I'd buy the Mauser letter for $15