Anomalous New Model Parabellum production

[Dwight Gruber]

New Model Parabellum production—pistols of 7,65 or 9mm caliber, grip safety, no stock lug, routed safety indicator—ceased production sometime during 1913, around sn 69000. From that serial range reported pistols are entirely P08 commercial pistols (9mm, no grip safety, GESICHERT marked) without stock lug (08C).

The P08 stock lug addition was introduced to army production in August 1913, and P08 commercial pistols with stock lug (P08 proper) began to appear in the mid-sn 70100 serial range. Shortly thereafter, as early as sn 70610, P08 commercial pistols with grip safeties began to appear. Most of the P08 grip safety commercials are reported in the sn 71166-71400 serial range, although there are several outliers.

Although most of these P08 grip safety commercials are reported with stock lugs, there are two reported without, and several with no report. This has been the origin of a spirited discussion about the nature of the non-stock-lug pistols http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...mmercial+frame, with no definitive conclusion.

Earlier this year P08 grip safety commercial sn 72571 sans stock lug appeared on auction, and I saw an opportunity to make a direct comparison myself. Satisfied with the serial number and auction description, I bid and won the pistol.



When it arrived I unpacked it and began my examination confident that I would finally learn something concrete about the non-stock-lug grip-safety P08. When I looked at the safety I learned something else entirely.



Rather than the expected GESICHERT safety mark, this pistol has a routed safety indicator. When I examined the bottom of the grip frame at the magazine well, it was clear that this pistol was originally manufactured without a stock lug.



Frankly, if I had paid more attention, this would not have been a surprise. The auction photo showed the absence of the upper GESICHERT mark. More importantly, the serial number appears in the commercial database. It is one of three adjacent reports—sn 72571, sn 72621, and sn 72646—which share anomalous designations and comment.

In late 1914 the recoil spring well changed to a flat profile, rather than retaining the vestigial remnant of the grip safety pedestal. This shows up in commercial production as early as sn 71857. With this pistol in hand, it is possible to confirm the continuation of New Model Parabellum production—at least in a small way—into 1914.

And I still want to examine a grip-safety P08 commercial without stock lug.

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

It has been pointed out that I indicated that this is continuation of Old Model production. This was a stupid inadvertancy, which I have fixed. To pointedly avoid further confusion, the post now reads:

"With this pistol in hand, it is possible to confirm the continuation of New Model Parabellum production—at least in a small way—into 1914."

Sorry about that.

--Dwight

[DonVoigt]

I'm still confused, you wrote above:

"Earlier this year P08 grip safety commercial sn 72571 sans stock lug appeared on auction, and I saw an opportunity to make a direct comparison myself. Satisfied with the serial number and auction description, I bid and won the pistol.



When it arrived I unpacked it and began my examination confident that I would finally learn something concrete about the non-stock-lug grip-safety P08. When I looked at the safety I learned something else entirely.



Rather than the expected GESICHERT safety mark, this pistol has a routed safety indicator. When I examined the bottom of the grip frame at the magazine well, it was clear that this pistol was originally manufactured without a stock lug.



Frankly, if I had paid more attention, this would not have been a surprise. The auction photo showed the absence of the upper GESICHERT mark. More importantly, the serial number appears in the commercial database. It is one of three adjacent reports—sn 72571, sn 72621, and sn 72646—which share anomalous designations and comment.

In late 1914 the recoil spring well changed to a flat profile, rather than retaining the vestigial remnant of the grip safety pedestal. This shows up in commercial production as early as sn 71857. With this pistol in hand, it is possible to confirm the continuation of New Model Parabellum production—at least in a small way—into 1914.

And I still want to examine a grip-safety P08 commercial without stock lug.

--Dwight"

Why do you say you still want to examine one?
What am I missing?

While I was writing this, Dwight answered by question by PM:

"The essential--and picayune--difference between the two is that the Parabellum has a routed safety indicator in the lower position, and the P08 has a GESICHERT mark in the upper position. What I would hope to determine is the manufacturing pathway for the P08, and whether the absence of a stock lug is original manufacture or modern removal.

Sorry for the confusion."

Though not stated clearly(to me) , the pistol Dwight bought was a New Model Parabellum- not a P 08 with grip safety and no lug.

Looks to me in the one picture that the back strap is rough, and the lug may have been present then removed???
Or what looks like roughness from removal may just be a lighting/angle artifact.

[Dwight Gruber]

Lighting, angle, thumbprint, ageing. The telling details are the overall profile and thickness of he metal at the rear of the magazine well. I will try to post a comparison picture, it may take a couple of days.

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

The pistol Dwight bought never had a stock lug. If you have seen dozens of Lugers with removed stock lugs the signs of removal are abundantly clear. To remove the stock lug with the resulting configuration of the gun Dwight has would require extensive welding, heat treatment and meticulous resurfacing and refinish...and to what end? Such a modification would not increase the value of the gun one iota.

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Ron, that is why I asked the question; you have seen many more of these than most of us.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Thanks Ron, that is why I asked the question; you have seen many more of these than most of us.

Heck, I own one with a ground-off stock lug. A "slick-back"--but not in a good way. It ain't pretty, to see the least. This issue made what is otherwise a very nice Artillery affordable to me, since it's been a shooter ever since that genius ground the lug.

Ron is correct about the welding because, If we compare a lugged example with a plain one, one can see that although a lot of the stock lug sticks out, there is plenty of the system that is cut below what would have been the surface of a plain grip strap, and would need to be filled in.

[Edward Tinker]

I called Dwight today and we talked. I told him, the problem is that he has a 18th grade vocabulary and i have a 9th grade vocabulary (well, I like to write that way, its actually a bit higher )



All I can say is that I am looking forward to seeing Dwight in Feb at the SOS (and Lyn too!)

Ed