"Blackish" Early DWM Finish...?

[Pete Ebbink]

Had a chance to see a very early DWM Imperial luger at the Reno Gun show. What was striking about this luger was the very blackish and polished finish to this gun...

Noticed a couple of lugers in C. Kenyon's 2nd. book, "Luger - The Multinational Pistol" on ages 19 and 37 that have the same finish as the gun I saw in person at Reno...

Is such a finish on early Imperial DWM's common...? Authentic...?

Thanks for your help...

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Lugerdoc]

Pete, On one of these, I'd look very carefully for evidence of polishing and refinishing. TH

[Thor]

Also, on a related note, a fresh rust blue will appear a little brighter than a duller original rust blue. If a rust blued Luger shines a little more than normal even though the polish marks are rough, it is probably been recently rust blued. A strong light might also be a give away to original vs recent bluing depending on how long ago it was done. Modern Salt bluing usually has a destinct BLACK look to it.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello All,

Here are the two gun examples from the C. Kenyon book that show the very blackish and very polished finish on the piece I saw at Reno...





I think the 1900 cased Commercial may have sold at a Christie's auction a few year back...

It is possible this type of finish is not authentic, early DWM...? If so, how could Mr. Kenyon have missed this...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Thor]

Notice in both photos the area that are reflecting light are much grayer. The bottom of the side plate, the bottom of the frame/rear grip strap, the barrels. I believe it is the way the photos have been taken. A strong light on the old rust blued finish would show some browning if original IMO.

[Heinz]

Pete, I think the photograpy in that book is really beautiful but I suspect the lighting and exposures times were adjusted to make these lugers appear at their best. I am not sure the colors and appearance are what you would see if they were in your hand.

Great to look at though.

[Thor]

Take a look at both triggers, they have no light on them and look very dark. I would imagine the light for these pics were coming in from the sides and the trigger guard shaded the triggers. I wish Kenyon was a poster and he could comment for sure on these. Very nice Lugers for sure.
Here are two different picture of the same Luger taken under different lighting conditions. This is GT's Navy Luger I rust blued several years ago. One looks rust blued and the other looks salt blued (black) but both are of a rust blued Luger.
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/GTNAVYAFTER.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/GTNAVYAFTER.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/GTNavyAfter2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/GTNavyAfter2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[Heinz]

Thor, thanks, very clear showing of the effects of lighting. Nice blue also!

[Pete Ebbink]

Thanks to all and especially, Ted, for your time in replying...

I have a chance to possibly get more info. about this "black" gun that was shown around at Reno from the previous (possible) owner. If this lead pans out, I will update more info. about this gun's finish, then...

The gun was an early 1900-1902 commercial piece with a # 2208x serial number...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Lugerdoc]

Pete, When I lived in CA, I recall a dealer at the shows that displayed many lugers of various eras on his racks. They all had the same black/blue finish. I'll leave it to your imagination has to how this was possible. When asked, he replied that they were all minty unused originals. TH

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Tom,

That fellow (with the initials "WC" or "BC") is still at each Reno show...with racks full of lugers that all look alike. Funny how lugers spanning over 80-90 years from many differenet manufacturers can all have that identical, "just out of the factory" finish...and he still swears they are all "factory original"...but does not say whose factory and when they came out...I usually just walk by his tables quickly...

There is usually a similar table with another fellow at Tulsa with "all black" lugers...as well...again spanning many years and makers...

But this lone piece...serial # 2208x...at Reno was elsewhere and its black finish did not look anything like the wares from the folks, above...

Here is the other detail about this piece # 2208x...it is a 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel in 9 mm... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ...maybe be the 2nd. one reported...(the previous 1902 Swiss FB luger is # 22048 or 22049...)

And anticipating those comments about a "fabrication"...(which is a legitimate comment)...I, too, wondered :

If one was to fabricate a 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel (possibly the 2nd. one reported in existence), why do so in such a very black, polished finish that is so uncharacteristically early DWM...? Why draw attention to a gun that will be suspect, right off the bat, with a finish that draws even more attention and disbelief to itself...?

This one has me scratching my head...others at Reno had a chance to see this piece...as well...(I am hoping folks like Bob Hogan or Don Rousseau had a chance to see it...).

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Scarecrow]

Here are some pictures of a finnish lugers with dark finish on it:

[Tom Porter]

I have a DWM Luger with a "red" slide. It is original.
How common is this. (anyone)
Tom
[email protected]
770-220-5617

[Vlim]

There was a process called 'browning' (as in 'to brown')

I don't know the specifics of this process as opposed to rust/salt blueing, but I'm interested if anyone has some ideas.

The sideplate of my Dutch 1906 has this browned appearance and the process reportedly was in use in the Dutch colonies.

[ViggoG]

Gerben,
Could it be possible that someone has reblued the sideplate with instant blue?
The changing from blue to brown is a common failure when the instant blue is improperly applied, especially over a long time period.
ViggoG
Edit Addition; <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" />
Gerben,
The excellent book by Angier, "Firearm Blueing and Browning" covers the subject in fair detail.
They are occasionally available on "eBay" at a very reasonable price.
I highly recommend it as a referrence work.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
ViggoG

[Hugh]

Gerben

"Browning" was the finish used to protect the firearm from rusting before "bluing" was used. It is applied in the same manner as rust bluing, which is all that it is; "rusting". However it is rusting that is left in the red oxidized state (ferric oxide)rather than being converted to a black finsh (ferrosic oxide)by boiling in water.In the 1700's gunsmiths applied a salt water solution to the metal get this finish. Nowadays, it can be applied using Birchwood Casey's Plum Brown solution used like rust bluing.

[Vlim]

Hugh,

That would make sense. To 'brown' parts and even guns after arsenal work is done on them, to prevent rusting during storage. Then blueing them when they go back into service.

This would explain a fair amount of browned guns and parts popping up in the indonesian area (especially with guns that were 'liberated' from arsenals by the local freedom fighters)

[John Sabato]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally by Hugh... "Browning" was the finish used to protect the firearm from rusting before "bluing" was used. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Gerben,

I believe you may have misunderstood Hugh's comment. What I think he meant to explain is that "browning" was a process used before the "blueing" process was historically developed.

The Blueing process was developed much later, during the industrial revolution period when chemical processes, and the results obtained by finishing firearms in this manner were better understood and documented. At least that is my understanding of the history of firearms finishing...

Am I correctly interpreting what you said Hugh?

I believe that the condition of firearms that originally served in Indonesia and other tropical climates is the result of humidity creating a true rust oxidation or patina on the guns...

[Vlim]

Hi John,

Knowing the humidity factors over there, I'm still amazed how well the rust-blued guns came out of there. The only trouble they had was with the bore of the barrels, hence the 7-year barrel replacement cycle.

The brown color on my sideplate is definately not the result of humidity, but the result of some
sort of processing. Other dull-brown finished Dutch lugers were reported, but I never had the opportunity to see one up close.

If 'browning' offers a speedy, cheap, effective way to protect metal parts, it could have been used as a preservative measure during storage prior to blueing.

I guess we'll just have to wait until some more parts (or complete guns) pop up somewhere.

[John Sabato]

It is also possible that the sideplate was individually refinished because of holster wear down to bear metal in that humid climate... perhaps that is why the finish differs from the rest of your gun.