1920 .30 cal DWM Luger?

r010159 · 10-01-2017, 09:29 PM

Hello all!

I found this Luger in my gun safe. The previous owner tolld me it is .30 caliber. It had no date stamp, SN 1368h, two c/N proof marks with one on the right side face plate and one beneath the barrel, no military acceptance or other proof marks, "GESCIHER" under the safety lever., all matching except magazine with no SN, and magazine with wooden bottom. I think it is a commercial 1920 model Luger.

The condition is excellent so this makes me think that it has been reblued. However, there are halos around the numbers of the serial number stamp and the "GESCIHER" stamp shows metal within the letters.

I have included some best effort photos. My hands shake too much and the lighting is poor in my living room. If these are not good enough, I will try again.

Thanks!

Bob

DonVoigt · 10-01-2017, 09:48 PM

Welcome Bob.

Looks like you have a nice 1920 "alphabet" commercial luger in .30 ; as you thought!

An un-numbered magazine is correct.

r010159 · 10-01-2017, 10:08 PM

Thanks allot for confirming my suspicions!

Do you think it has been reblued? It is in too good of a condition, even no holster wear. However, there are sone halos around the digits of the serial number, and metal can be seen within the letters of the "GESCIHER" stamp.

What do you think the date range of manufacture is for this pistol? What do you think it is worth? This is very exciting.

Bob

mrerick · 10-01-2017, 10:26 PM

Yes (given that it's sometimes difficult to determine this in pictures), your Luger looks like it may be refinished to me. "k" block should be in 1922 or 1923.

Take pictures again without using flash, but instead using shaded natural sunlight. The finish appearance may change.

The edges do look sharp in most places, but appear rounded in others in the photos.

Genuine halos on the barrel serial number digits would indicate original finish in that area. Closeup properly exposed sharp pictures would help verify.

Areas like the frame rails should be in the white. Take a look inside. Also the recoil spring link and the lock pin on the toggle main axle.

Marc

r010159 · 10-01-2017, 11:30 PM

"Yes (given that it's sometimes difficult to determine this in pictures), your Luger looks like it may be refinished to me. "k" block should be in 1922 or 1923.

What do you mean the "k" block? The SN ends in "h".

"The edges do look sharp in most places, but appear rounded in others in the photos. "

Yes I have noticed this. I paid allot of money from a reputable firearms dealer that I have known for years. He had personally owned this one. I think he may have made a mistake!

"Areas like the frame rails should be in the white. Take a look inside. Also the recoil spring link and the lock pin on the toggle main axle. "

What is the recoil spring link? The lock pin? I understand these questions are something I should understand. Sorry.

Here is what I found so far. The inside of the rails have been blued. Also there is a pin into the top of the pistol which the toggle rotates around. The side of this pin has been blued. The one in the back of the pistol which the toggle also pivots around is blued. This does not look goid at all.

mrerick · 10-02-2017, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r010159

"Yes (given that it's sometimes difficult to determine this in pictures), your Luger looks like it may be refinished to me. "k" block should be in 1922 or 1923.

What do you mean the "k" block? The SN ends in "h"

Well, the DWM Alphabet Commercial series started with suffix "i" in about 1922. They were 5 digit numeric before that.

If it really is an "h" something is seriously wrong.

I did my best to interpret what I could from your photo, which is unfortunately difficult to determine detail in.

We have a graphic of the script letters that DWM used in the FAQ PDF file. Take a look.

r010159 · 10-02-2017, 06:59 PM

Now that I have the pistol field stripped, I can now see clearly that it is a "k". My mistake. Now in the same vein as reworked oistols, I found in the "The Blue Book of Gun Values" by S.P. Fjestad, he gives a description of the 1920 model. The following is an excerpt from that description. "...since these guns were assembled using the parts of previously manufactured Lugers, including 1900-1906 mfg. with the grip safety on the frame". This does not make any sense to me unless the parts were restamped, reassembled, and then reblued.

DonVoigt · 10-02-2017, 11:06 AM

Perhaps the most telling picture of those posted is that of the muzzle, it should be polished - in the white. Hard to say for sure without seeing it, but yes it may have been re-finished or partially refinished.

There is considerable wear to the blue on the side plate, but the grips straps look "new".

If you are not happy with it, I'd return it; especially if you paid more than $1000 or so.

JMHO.

Chickenthief · 10-02-2017, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Perhaps the most telling picture of those posted is that of the muzzle, it should be polished - in the white. Hard to say for sure without seeing it, but yes it may have been re-finished or partially refinished.

There is considerable wear to the blue on the side plate, but the grips straps look "new".

If you are not happy with it, I'd return it; especially if you paid more than $1000 or so.

JMHO.

Huh?
I can asure you that my 1921 (i series) is in original state and it has a blued muzzle. Why would they blue the barrel and then polish the muzzle?

DonVoigt · 10-02-2017, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chickenthief

Huh?
I can asure you that my 1921 (i series) is in original state and it has a blued muzzle. Why would they blue the barrel and then polish the muzzle?

Why,
because that is just what "they" did.

Perhaps the same reason that the inside of the frame was protected during the rust bluing process?

I don't take pictures of the muzzle of my lugers when documenting them, but a quick look in Still's Weimar Lugers shows several pictures with the muzzle clearly showing polished.
The ones that are not polished are "re-worked" and usually have the 1920 PS added.

Others can weigh in on their observations.

Feel free to post pictures of your 1921 or add a link so we can see it- better yet start a new thread about your question.

r010159 · 10-02-2017, 02:06 PM

Are the reworked versions of this pistol worth anything? I am going to have to field strip the pistol in order to look to see if the inside of the frame has also been blued. I think this would be a good test for a reblue. What do you think? Now I am going to have to figure out how to take it apart. I hope this will not be difficult or messy.

PS I have been looking at a lot of Luger photos. Some have this blue type of tinge to the blueing. What is this about?

Update: I have watched a couple videos on field stripping a Luger. I imagine they all field strp the same way, or at least I hope so.

ithacaartist · 10-02-2017, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r010159

Are the reworked versions of this pistol worth anything? I am going to have to field strip the pistol in order to look to see if the inside of the frame has also been blued. I think this would be a good test for a reblue. What do you think? Now I am going to have to figure out how to take it apart. I hope this will not be difficult or messy.

PS I have been looking at a lot of Luger photos. Some have this blue type of tinge to the blueing. What is this about?

Update: I have watched a couple videos on field stripping a Luger. I imagine they all field strp the same way, or at least I hope so.

Opening the action and looking inside will give the first clue as to whether internal areas were improperly re-done. Relax, they all break down and reassemble the same!

Everything original produced until mid 1937 should be rust blued and its insides in the white as well as a polished muzzle crown. Rust bluing results in a more bluish tone, hot (salt) bluing's oxides are more black.

Chickenthief · 10-02-2017, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Why,
because that is just what "they" did.

Perhaps the same reason that the inside of the frame was protected during the rust bluing process?

I don't take pictures of the muzzle of my lugers when documenting them, but a quick look in Still's Weimar Lugers shows several pictures with the muzzle clearly showing polished.
The ones that are not polished are "re-worked" and usually have the 1920 PS added.

Others can weigh in on their observations.

Feel free to post pictures of your 1921 or add a link so we can see it- better yet start a new thread about your question.

Sorry mate!
You are right and i am wrong.
The aged appearence played a trick on my old eyes and polished looked like worn black.
But polished it is when i googled it under proper light.

Here are 2 pieces of humble pie:

DonVoigt · 10-02-2017, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chickenthief

Sorry mate!
You are right and i am wrong.
The aged appearence played a trick on my old eyes and polished looked like worn black.
But polished it is when i googled it under proper light.

Here are 2 pieces of humble pie:

Thanks for checking; and the report.

Metal left in the white can and often does darken with age; sometimes to the point of looking black-but it is usually thin and mottled.

JimD,
Lighting- yes, very true- that is why I said it is "hard to tell" from a picture.

Major Tom · 10-02-2017, 11:10 AM

I have a 1920 commercial in 30 luger too. Mine is all matching and I had Jim Solomon redo the grip panels. My suffix letter is 'n'. The 30 luger is a pleasure to shoot with very mild recoil. Altho the ammo is more expensive than 9mm. I bought PPU and Fiocchi ammo both of which function perfectly. Shoot it like no tommoro.

r010159 · 10-02-2017, 11:41 AM

I think it has been partially reblued. The inside of the rails not being in white seems to suggest this. The barrel looking prestine points this direction too. Any more thoughts on this being a reblued pistol? Could it have been reblued later in Germany? I heard somewhere that these pistols that are of WWI were reassembled possibly using different parts and refinished. The barrel was replaced and restamped. However, I must be getting this all wrong.

Chickenthief · 10-02-2017, 01:12 PM

The commercials were sold out of Germany to generate desperately needed currency after WWI so i doubt that your gun was redone at Mauser during WWII where salt bluing took of.

DonVoigt · 10-02-2017, 04:19 PM

Dave,
I think you meant to say "rust " bluing (not salt bluing) = blue tinge.

Salt blue(hot) and hot blue(black oxide) are the same process using melted "salts" - mostly NaOH and Nitrates. It is done at a temperature well above that of boiling water, due to the higher boiling point of the melted salts.

Rust blue uses a relatively dilute solution of nitric acid with "additives" and requires development of a rust layer which is carded away and the solution re-applied, perhaps 4 or 6 or even more times to achieve the desired finish.

rhuff · 10-02-2017, 04:34 PM

My "i" series alphabet Luger has a polished muzzle, and I am 99% sure that the finish of this Luger is original. I have owned this Luger since 1971.

ithacaartist · 10-03-2017, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Dave,
I think you meant to say "rust " bluing (not salt bluing) = blue tinge.

Yep. A "Senior Moment"

10-01-2017, 09:29 PM	#1
r010159 User Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1920 .30 cal DWM Luger? Hello all! I found this Luger in my gun safe. The previous owner tolld me it is .30 caliber. It had no date stamp, SN 1368h, two c/N proof marks with one on the right side face plate and one beneath the barrel, no military acceptance or other proof marks, "GESCIHER" under the safety lever., all matching except magazine with no SN, and magazine with wooden bottom. I think it is a commercial 1920 model Luger. The condition is excellent so this makes me think that it has been reblued. However, there are halos around the numbers of the serial number stamp and the "GESCIHER" stamp shows metal within the letters. I have included some best effort photos. My hands shake too much and the lighting is poor in my living room. If these are not good enough, I will try again. Thanks! Bob Attached Thumbnails

10-01-2017, 09:48 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Welcome Bob. Looks like you have a nice 1920 "alphabet" commercial luger in .30 ; as you thought! An un-numbered magazine is correct. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-01-2017, 10:26 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Yes (given that it's sometimes difficult to determine this in pictures), your Luger looks like it may be refinished to me. "k" block should be in 1922 or 1923. Take pictures again without using flash, but instead using shaded natural sunlight. The finish appearance may change. The edges do look sharp in most places, but appear rounded in others in the photos. Genuine halos on the barrel serial number digits would indicate original finish in that area. Closeup properly exposed sharp pictures would help verify. Areas like the frame rails should be in the white. Take a look inside. Also the recoil spring link and the lock pin on the toggle main axle. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-01-2017, 11:30 PM	#5
r010159 User Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"Yes (given that it's sometimes difficult to determine this in pictures), your Luger looks like it may be refinished to me. "k" block should be in 1922 or 1923. What do you mean the "k" block? The SN ends in "h". "The edges do look sharp in most places, but appear rounded in others in the photos. " Yes I have noticed this. I paid allot of money from a reputable firearms dealer that I have known for years. He had personally owned this one. I think he may have made a mistake! "Areas like the frame rails should be in the white. Take a look inside. Also the recoil spring link and the lock pin on the toggle main axle. " What is the recoil spring link? The lock pin? I understand these questions are something I should understand. Sorry. Here is what I found so far. The inside of the rails have been blued. Also there is a pin into the top of the pistol which the toggle rotates around. The side of this pin has been blued. The one in the back of the pistol which the toggle also pivots around is blued. This does not look goid at all. Last edited by r010159; 10-02-2017 at 10:34 AM.

10-02-2017, 06:59 PM	#7
r010159 User Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Now that I have the pistol field stripped, I can now see clearly that it is a "k". My mistake. Now in the same vein as reworked oistols, I found in the "The Blue Book of Gun Values" by S.P. Fjestad, he gives a description of the 1920 model. The following is an excerpt from that description. "...since these guns were assembled using the parts of previously manufactured Lugers, including 1900-1906 mfg. with the grip safety on the frame". This does not make any sense to me unless the parts were restamped, reassembled, and then reblued. Last edited by r010159; 10-02-2017 at 07:46 PM.

10-01-2017, 10:08 PM	#3
r010159 User Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks allot for confirming my suspicions! Do you think it has been reblued? It is in too good of a condition, even no holster wear. However, there are sone halos around the digits of the serial number, and metal can be seen within the letters of the "GESCIHER" stamp. What do you think the date range of manufacture is for this pistol? What do you think it is worth? This is very exciting. Bob

10-02-2017, 11:06 AM	#8
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Perhaps the most telling picture of those posted is that of the muzzle, it should be polished - in the white. Hard to say for sure without seeing it, but yes it may have been re-finished or partially refinished. There is considerable wear to the blue on the side plate, but the grips straps look "new". If you are not happy with it, I'd return it; especially if you paid more than $1000 or so. JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-02-2017, 02:06 PM	#11
r010159 User Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Are the reworked versions of this pistol worth anything? I am going to have to field strip the pistol in order to look to see if the inside of the frame has also been blued. I think this would be a good test for a reblue. What do you think? Now I am going to have to figure out how to take it apart. I hope this will not be difficult or messy. PS I have been looking at a lot of Luger photos. Some have this blue type of tinge to the blueing. What is this about? Update: I have watched a couple videos on field stripping a Luger. I imagine they all field strp the same way, or at least I hope so.

10-02-2017, 11:10 AM	#15
Major Tom User Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: S.E. Iowa Posts: 484 Thanks: 533 Thanked 227 Times in 124 Posts	I have a 1920 commercial in 30 luger too. Mine is all matching and I had Jim Solomon redo the grip panels. My suffix letter is 'n'. The 30 luger is a pleasure to shoot with very mild recoil. Altho the ammo is more expensive than 9mm. I bought PPU and Fiocchi ammo both of which function perfectly. Shoot it like no tommoro. __________________ I Build Custom Pistol Boxes

10-02-2017, 11:41 AM	#16
r010159 User Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think it has been partially reblued. The inside of the rails not being in white seems to suggest this. The barrel looking prestine points this direction too. Any more thoughts on this being a reblued pistol? Could it have been reblued later in Germany? I heard somewhere that these pistols that are of WWI were reassembled possibly using different parts and refinished. The barrel was replaced and restamped. However, I must be getting this all wrong.

10-02-2017, 01:12 PM	#17
Chickenthief User Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Denmark Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 131 Times in 48 Posts	The commercials were sold out of Germany to generate desperately needed currency after WWI so i doubt that your gun was redone at Mauser during WWII where salt bluing took of.

10-02-2017, 04:19 PM	#18
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Dave, I think you meant to say "rust " bluing (not salt bluing) = blue tinge. Salt blue(hot) and hot blue(black oxide) are the same process using melted "salts" - mostly NaOH and Nitrates. It is done at a temperature well above that of boiling water, due to the higher boiling point of the melted salts. Rust blue uses a relatively dilute solution of nitric acid with "additives" and requires development of a rust layer which is carded away and the solution re-applied, perhaps 4 or 6 or even more times to achieve the desired finish. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-02-2017, 04:34 PM	#19
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	My "i" series alphabet Luger has a polished muzzle, and I am 99% sure that the finish of this Luger is original. I have owned this Luger since 1971. __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21