New Luger Owner Possibly a "SNEAK"...

DedHed · 10-27-2018, 10:50 AM

Hello everyone! I've always wanted a Luger but didn't want to pay the high price. Unfortunately I have never sat down and read anything about them, either. I figured they were like WW 1911's in that they were pretty easy to find dates, manufacturers and everything else. Boy I was wrong. So i went to a local auction yesterday and found this one, and won her at $700. What was confusing to me was that there were 4 or 5 other Lugers commercial and military but no one bid on this one, other than one other guy and myself. So I get home to research the old girl and to my disbelieve I think I have a "Sneak" Luger!
It doesn't have the magazine safety or the sear safety. But what from I've read it should have them. The magazine is not numbers matching. Anyway, I would love to hear your collectors thoughts on this. Was the $700 a good buying price or what is it's value? What is it's prominence? But most of all is it a "Sneak" Luger? Don't hold back! Thank You!

4 Scale · 10-27-2018, 11:56 AM

One thing I hope we can all agree on, if it functions you did very well at that price. Well done and welcome!

The stock lug dates the frame to 1913 or later. I don't see the Mauser dimple in the stock lug, so I think the frame is by DWM. I see Mauser-era proofs on the barrel and breechblock and receiver. I do not see obvious buffing or grinding anywhere, although it might be possible on the grip strap and sideplate- I just can't tell. The halos around your barrel serial teach that at least that part is in original finish. The wear and finish on the other parts seem to approximately match the barrel, so if I had to vote I'd say I think the other parts are original finish but I find it is almost always difficult to judge finish from photos.

Beyond that I am just not familiar enough with DWM/early Mauser parts or sneaks to offer additional comments. I find pistols like this fascinating and I will watch the thread with interest to see what experienced collectors say about the parts and finish.

Edward Tinker · 10-27-2018, 12:48 PM

The serial number range is what a 'sneak' should be "u" suffix.

Its mismatched. Although your close up pictures are good, you took internal shots which just show maker markings, which don't help us much

A sneak is a late DWM parts, so would not expect a Mauser frame.... Please see the FAQ for what a sneak is. They are not just police, they are a left over contract that was never sent out.

Lugerdoc · 10-27-2018, 01:37 PM

I've seen "sneaks" in the s,t & u suffix ranges. Most were assembled by BKIW from left over DWM parts when they went out of business in 1929. Yours appears to have Weirmar military acceptance markings. It also appears to be missing the mid toggle axle retaining pin. TH

mrerick · 10-27-2018, 01:51 PM

If you want to start reading about Lugers, start with our forum FAQ document...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121

It's free, has much more value than it costs and included accumulated knowledge from years of forum analysis of Lugers.

Vlim · 10-27-2018, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Most were assembled by BKIW from left over DWM parts when they went out of business in 1929.

BKIW was DWM. They never went out of business. After the 1929 takeover of DWM, the new owner, the Quandt Group, decided to rationalize small arms production and initiated the transfer of equipment from Berlin to Oberndorf.

The 'sneak' was a small contract for Moroccan Insergents at the Riff area. Because of the political sentiments, DWM chose to omit any maker's mark. Then the decision was made not to deliver these guns and they were sold to German police instead.

ithacaartist · 10-27-2018, 03:31 PM

Particularly in the second pic, the receiver seems noticeably proud of the front of the grip frame. Is it just my eyes, or is this an early long receiver assembled to a short frame here?

DonVoigt · 10-27-2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Particularly in the second pic, the receiver seems noticeably proud of the front of the grip frame. Is it just my eyes, or is this an early long receiver assembled to a short frame here?

I think it is an optical illusion, due to angles or shadows.
It is a short receiver.

DonVoigt · 10-27-2018, 03:47 PM

Lots to comment on-
to the OP- you have a late DWM or BIKW pistol, in the U block, we don't call them "sneaks" but " '29 commercial" luger now. They were never "sneaks" , which I believe was another made up marketing term(JMHO), or simply a good story.

The markings on the chamber and toggle link, have not been "removed by buffing"; and are absent because they were never there! I see no evidence that it has been refinished. Of course it was made with a lug and hold open in about 1929- as it should have been.

It is marked "differently" as it is a commercial pistol that was taken into and accepted by the military. It did not start out as a military contract.

It has been "apart" , as the small pin in the toggle knob seems to be missing.

It is police marked on the front strap, or was, as the markings have been mostly removed.
Not all police lugers received a sear safety, or a magazine safety; lugers for the "barracked" police did not receive these additions. So their absence is not strange at all.

I do wish folks would be sure of their "facts" before posting authoritative sounding errors and promulgating luger misconceptions. JMHO.

CRob · 10-27-2018, 04:04 PM

Does it shoot?

HerrKaiser · 10-27-2018, 04:08 PM

Forgive me, I often see reblued or rebuffed guns that take away chamber and toggle marks. The partially removed police marking on front fit in with that profile too. Not like all of us have seen this type of pistol commonly or come across large amounts of literature on them.

DonVoigt · 10-27-2018, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

Forgive me, I often see reblued or rebuffed guns that take away chamber and toggle marks. The partially removed police marking on front fit in with that profile too. Not like all of us have seen this type of pistol commonly or come across large amounts of literature on them.

HerrKaiser,
It is not a question of "forgiveness", but one of accuracy.

If you don't know, don't give an answer that sounds like facts carved in stone. Just qualify the answer, as "I guess, or "I think", or "it looks like".

All of us make mistakes, but if left uncorrected they only serve to confuse others regarding the nuances of lugers. No one has seen everything for sure.

I've had to go back and retract or change more than one incorrect assessment; usually because I didn't get up and check "the book".

Just remember what Davy Crockett said: " be sure you're right, and then go ahead".

Now I'll relinquish the

.

DedHed · 10-27-2018, 05:19 PM

Thanks everyone! Due to the weather up here in the Rust Belt the rain won't allow me to go out back yet (to shoot). I went to a local gun show today to find the Local Luger Guy. The funny thing is, is that for as long as I have been going to shows I have seen him, but I've been to intimidated to speak to him until today. LOL. So at the auction it was labeled at 1930-1933. After a close examination by the Luger Guy it is an 1929 commercial, approximately 70% finish left, with possible military ties due to the proof mark and the scripts on the front grip strap. His well educated opinion is that it never entered police service due to the lack of the sear and mag safety. One major concern is that the toggle pin is very worn at the ridge side due to possible grinding or something of that nature. The grips are unmarked underneath. His opinion is that it is a DWM late 1929 with left over parts hence the lack of the makers mark before Mauser picked up production. The mag is a 1935 vintage. Thanks again! Ecstatic in Ohio!

HerrKaiser · 10-27-2018, 05:20 PM

Unfortunately I’m stuck in a place where I can either afford the books on Lugers or afford my textbooks for class each semester given the prices that accompany them. I do my best to soak up and synthesize the information you all give on here. But I’m stuck with only Standard Catalog of Luger which has some pretty pictures I suppose but doesn’t seem to be all too reliable as a I quickly learned.

DedHed · 10-27-2018, 05:50 PM

Is there Luger Data sheets to fill out to note numbers I can download somewhere?

ithacaartist · 10-27-2018, 09:40 PM

Welcome to the forum, Shannan. I've heard that DVDs of the Sturgess and Gortz reference set are available separately at quite a reasonable price. I couldn't find them listed as such on the publisher's (Simpson Ltd.) site, but I'm pretty sure I remember a comment somewhere to that effect. I've sent a message to them in order to find out and will return to report the answer when I have it. Maybe someone else knows, in the meantime?

DonVoigt · 10-28-2018, 09:35 AM

DedHed,
His "well educated opinion" is wrong, not all police lugers received the sear and mag safety, as noted in my post above. The "removed markings" show it was issued to the Schupo - can't make out where. Schupo = Schutz Polizei = "protection police". Obviously he did not know that the lugers of the barracked police did not receive these additions.

Your luger is not make up of left over/unmarked pieces- the lack of the DWM roll mark was explained above as part of the not delivered "Riff contract".

Lugers destined for the Police in this time frame were accepted by the military, hence the markings on the right side. There has been much discussion as to whether or not these lugers were first made in 7,65mm and then the barrels changed to 9mm- you can find the thread with this discussion by searching or maybe someone will post a link.

Yes, it looks like you should replace the toggle pin before shooting- as it could cause a problem.
Lugerdoc on this forum will have a replacement.

Herr Kaiser,
The cd mentioned is available from Simpson's or was- you have to call and ask for it as it is not "advertised" and was than $40 when I bought one.
Maybe you can put it on your Christmas list?

DedHed · 10-28-2018, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the help! There is so much info to piece together on these pieces it's crazy. I have searched and read so much the past two days its hard to piece it all together. But after your explanation its starting to come together. It has been and will be a great journey. One question though what is the character to the right of W2A66? Thanks

DonVoigt · 10-28-2018, 11:50 AM

It is an eagle over and H, a military proof used for a limited time in the late 1920's to early '30s.

This vintage luger is notorious for poorly struck acceptance and proof markings, yours are better than most.

Orders were given in 1937 to cease unit marking of police lugers; though not required some markings were "canceled", and example is below. Your markings may have been removed in the period, or at any time later; but are clearly police markings of a Schupo post.
You can see one below marked to the Landjaegeri (rural police) that was not touched.

Here is the same markings only tougher to make out! Both are 'u" suffix pistols.

Don't feel bad about "grasping" the details, it takes a while and not a little study. I like police lugers and have read all I could find about them and their first owners. Currently is have 35 DWM and Erfurt police lugers, along with a couple police marked M1896 Mausers and small "pocket" 7,65mm autos.

Lugerdoc · 10-28-2018, 01:07 PM

H.Kaiser et al, As you can see above, not all luger collectors &/or references agree. Since the early 1970s when the first luger reference books were published (I still recommend Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" @ around $50 or available at many public libraries, as a good place to start) many newer luger references have been published, with additional information. TH

10-27-2018, 10:50 AM	#1
DedHed User Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New Luger Owner Possibly a "SNEAK"... Hello everyone! I've always wanted a Luger but didn't want to pay the high price. Unfortunately I have never sat down and read anything about them, either. I figured they were like WW 1911's in that they were pretty easy to find dates, manufacturers and everything else. Boy I was wrong. So i went to a local auction yesterday and found this one, and won her at $700. What was confusing to me was that there were 4 or 5 other Lugers commercial and military but no one bid on this one, other than one other guy and myself. So I get home to research the old girl and to my disbelieve I think I have a "Sneak" Luger! It doesn't have the magazine safety or the sear safety. But what from I've read it should have them. The magazine is not numbers matching. Anyway, I would love to hear your collectors thoughts on this. Was the $700 a good buying price or what is it's value? What is it's prominence? But most of all is it a "Sneak" Luger? Don't hold back! Thank You! Last edited by DedHed; 10-27-2018 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Add pic

10-27-2018, 12:48 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	The serial number range is what a 'sneak' should be "u" suffix. Its mismatched. Although your close up pictures are good, you took internal shots which just show maker markings, which don't help us much A sneak is a late DWM parts, so would not expect a Mauser frame.... Please see the FAQ for what a sneak is. They are not just police, they are a left over contract that was never sent out. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-27-2018, 01:37 PM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I've seen "sneaks" in the s,t & u suffix ranges. Most were assembled by BKIW from left over DWM parts when they went out of business in 1929. Yours appears to have Weirmar military acceptance markings. It also appears to be missing the mid toggle axle retaining pin. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

10-27-2018, 01:51 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	If you want to start reading about Lugers, start with our forum FAQ document... http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121 It's free, has much more value than it costs and included accumulated knowledge from years of forum analysis of Lugers. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-27-2018, 03:31 PM	#7
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Particularly in the second pic, the receiver seems noticeably proud of the front of the grip frame. Is it just my eyes, or is this an early long receiver assembled to a short frame here? __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

10-27-2018, 11:56 AM	#2
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	One thing I hope we can all agree on, if it functions you did very well at that price. Well done and welcome! The stock lug dates the frame to 1913 or later. I don't see the Mauser dimple in the stock lug, so I think the frame is by DWM. I see Mauser-era proofs on the barrel and breechblock and receiver. I do not see obvious buffing or grinding anywhere, although it might be possible on the grip strap and sideplate- I just can't tell. The halos around your barrel serial teach that at least that part is in original finish. The wear and finish on the other parts seem to approximately match the barrel, so if I had to vote I'd say I think the other parts are original finish but I find it is almost always difficult to judge finish from photos. Beyond that I am just not familiar enough with DWM/early Mauser parts or sneaks to offer additional comments. I find pistols like this fascinating and I will watch the thread with interest to see what experienced collectors say about the parts and finish.

10-27-2018, 03:47 PM	#9
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Lots to comment on- to the OP- you have a late DWM or BIKW pistol, in the U block, we don't call them "sneaks" but " '29 commercial" luger now. They were never "sneaks" , which I believe was another made up marketing term(JMHO), or simply a good story. The markings on the chamber and toggle link, have not been "removed by buffing"; and are absent because they were never there! I see no evidence that it has been refinished. Of course it was made with a lug and hold open in about 1929- as it should have been. It is marked "differently" as it is a commercial pistol that was taken into and accepted by the military. It did not start out as a military contract. It has been "apart" , as the small pin in the toggle knob seems to be missing. It is police marked on the front strap, or was, as the markings have been mostly removed. Not all police lugers received a sear safety, or a magazine safety; lugers for the "barracked" police did not receive these additions. So their absence is not strange at all. I do wish folks would be sure of their "facts" before posting authoritative sounding errors and promulgating luger misconceptions. JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-27-2018, 04:04 PM	#10
CRob User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 30 Thanks: 135 Thanked 13 Times in 7 Posts	Does it shoot?

10-27-2018, 04:08 PM	#11
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Forgive me, I often see reblued or rebuffed guns that take away chamber and toggle marks. The partially removed police marking on front fit in with that profile too. Not like all of us have seen this type of pistol commonly or come across large amounts of literature on them. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

10-27-2018, 05:19 PM	#13
DedHed User Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks everyone! Due to the weather up here in the Rust Belt the rain won't allow me to go out back yet (to shoot). I went to a local gun show today to find the Local Luger Guy. The funny thing is, is that for as long as I have been going to shows I have seen him, but I've been to intimidated to speak to him until today. LOL. So at the auction it was labeled at 1930-1933. After a close examination by the Luger Guy it is an 1929 commercial, approximately 70% finish left, with possible military ties due to the proof mark and the scripts on the front grip strap. His well educated opinion is that it never entered police service due to the lack of the sear and mag safety. One major concern is that the toggle pin is very worn at the ridge side due to possible grinding or something of that nature. The grips are unmarked underneath. His opinion is that it is a DWM late 1929 with left over parts hence the lack of the makers mark before Mauser picked up production. The mag is a 1935 vintage. Thanks again! Ecstatic in Ohio!

10-27-2018, 05:20 PM	#14
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Unfortunately I’m stuck in a place where I can either afford the books on Lugers or afford my textbooks for class each semester given the prices that accompany them. I do my best to soak up and synthesize the information you all give on here. But I’m stuck with only Standard Catalog of Luger which has some pretty pictures I suppose but doesn’t seem to be all too reliable as a I quickly learned. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

10-27-2018, 05:50 PM	#15
DedHed User Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is there Luger Data sheets to fill out to note numbers I can download somewhere?

10-27-2018, 09:40 PM	#16
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Welcome to the forum, Shannan. I've heard that DVDs of the Sturgess and Gortz reference set are available separately at quite a reasonable price. I couldn't find them listed as such on the publisher's (Simpson Ltd.) site, but I'm pretty sure I remember a comment somewhere to that effect. I've sent a message to them in order to find out and will return to report the answer when I have it. Maybe someone else knows, in the meantime? __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

10-28-2018, 09:35 AM	#17
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	DedHed, His "well educated opinion" is wrong, not all police lugers received the sear and mag safety, as noted in my post above. The "removed markings" show it was issued to the Schupo - can't make out where. Schupo = Schutz Polizei = "protection police". Obviously he did not know that the lugers of the barracked police did not receive these additions. Your luger is not make up of left over/unmarked pieces- the lack of the DWM roll mark was explained above as part of the not delivered "Riff contract". Lugers destined for the Police in this time frame were accepted by the military, hence the markings on the right side. There has been much discussion as to whether or not these lugers were first made in 7,65mm and then the barrels changed to 9mm- you can find the thread with this discussion by searching or maybe someone will post a link. Yes, it looks like you should replace the toggle pin before shooting- as it could cause a problem. Lugerdoc on this forum will have a replacement. Herr Kaiser, The cd mentioned is available from Simpson's or was- you have to call and ask for it as it is not "advertised" and was than $40 when I bought one. Maybe you can put it on your Christmas list? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-28-2018, 10:38 AM	#18
DedHed User Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the help! There is so much info to piece together on these pieces it's crazy. I have searched and read so much the past two days its hard to piece it all together. But after your explanation its starting to come together. It has been and will be a great journey. One question though what is the character to the right of W2A66? Thanks

10-28-2018, 11:50 AM	#19
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	It is an eagle over and H, a military proof used for a limited time in the late 1920's to early '30s. This vintage luger is notorious for poorly struck acceptance and proof markings, yours are better than most. Orders were given in 1937 to cease unit marking of police lugers; though not required some markings were "canceled", and example is below. Your markings may have been removed in the period, or at any time later; but are clearly police markings of a Schupo post. You can see one below marked to the Landjaegeri (rural police) that was not touched. Here is the same markings only tougher to make out! Both are 'u" suffix pistols. Don't feel bad about "grasping" the details, it takes a while and not a little study. I like police lugers and have read all I could find about them and their first owners. Currently is have 35 DWM and Erfurt police lugers, along with a couple police marked M1896 Mausers and small "pocket" 7,65mm autos. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-28-2018, 01:07 PM	#20
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	H.Kaiser et al, As you can see above, not all luger collectors &/or references agree. Since the early 1970s when the first luger reference books were published (I still recommend Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" @ around $50 or available at many public libraries, as a good place to start) many newer luger references have been published, with additional information. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]