First Post - Need Help with Navy Marked Luger

[EJINPA]

Howdy, it seems that I have entered the world of Luger identification! I have had this pistol for some time, and now that we are housebound, decided to take some time and figure it out. As you can see, it has no date, no proof marks and no # suffix. I understand the Ostsee mark ok. Any help would be greatly appreciated. If more photos are needed, please ask. Thanks! E.

[Edward Tinker]

welcome!

Just be willing to wait a day or so and others will chime in who know Navy Lugers.

Perhaps a clear close up of each side, straight on. I was expecting to see a commercial crown N on one side....

Ed

[EJINPA]

Thanks for responding. Ill add photos in am. The absence of that proof and others has me stumped. They do not appear to have been removed. I really look forward to some honest opinions. Best, E.

[DonVoigt]

More pictures are needed as Ed suggested.
Right now, all I can say is that the numbers on the barrel are not original.

[EJINPA]

Ok, here are more photos of the pistol. Not sure about any numbers not being "original", but I can tell you that this was personally purchased right off the attic, so if they are not of a recent (last 80 years) addition, that I can assure you. Again, thanks for your input and expertise in helping me know exactly what to call this piece. Best, E.

[EJINPA]

Here are a couple more, hope they help.

[JTD]

My best guess is an imperial era luger that got reworked and scrubbed in the Weimar era, and somehow escaped proofing. It is an odd one for sure. Thanks for posting it. John

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by JTD

My best guess is an imperial era luger that got reworked and scrubbed in the Weimar era, and somehow escaped proofing. It is an odd one for sure. Thanks for posting it. John

The variations in Lugers that came out of Germany in the 1920's were extensive. Just about anything was possible.

Even before reading the above reply, I was thinking the same thing; a Weimar era rework. Germany was desperate for hard cash and reworked Lugers were a source.

[Heinz]

What are the caliber and the barrel length? A 9 mm and a 4-inch barrel may throw the easy"Weimar rework" explanation into question. Does the 80 years attic attribution mean it came over after WW1?

[EJINPA]

Yes, it is a 4" barrel and 9mm. Here are some photos of the holster it was in. there was no magazine. This was found in and amongst some other WW2 items packed away in an attic trunk. All I know is that they had all been there at least since returning from WW2.
That's about all I can honestly tell you.

[Heinz]

Interesting set. Probably called into service just before they stamped the skull and hose on it ;-)

[JTD]

Heinz I do not see how a 4" 9mm barrel draws a question?
It was probably an Imperial military that got scrubbed of war time proofs, reworked, rebarreled, and diverted to the Baltic Weimar Navy. Lack of barrel guage and proofing is the inigma.

[Heinz]

Most reworks for Weimar police or military use the original barrels with the addition of Weimar property markings to distinguish them from new production. In the odd case of a new barrel, they have the original receiver, proofs and date marking. Many have the 1920 stamp. New production was regulated by the treaty of Versailles which mandated the short barrels and less than 9 mm. requirements.
Outside of the above two streams of Lugers, military reworks and civilian new production, we start to see a whole bunch of irregular Heimgemach (homemade) stuff. The barrel on this example seems to have been hand-stamped with a slightly out of size font. The receiver is unnumbered and unproofed but appears to have parts original to the frame.
I do not think any of the examples like this came out of government reworks, certainly not DWM, or Simpson, or Mauser. To me "Weimar rework" implies government sanctioned work.
Pieces like this example are just as likely to have been reworked in the US, where a number of rework mills existed, and are outside of the realm of mainstream Luger production history. With all the piles of Lugers in inventory, why would the Navy want this gun?
It looks like a nice shooter that needs to be checked out for safety.

[hayhugh]

What say you Norm?

[Norme]

Hi Hugh,
My area of interest ends when W.W.1 ended, so Weimar Navy marked PO8's are outside my wheelhouse. That said, the Ostsee (Baltic Sea) marked frame is the only piece of this collection of parts that could possibly be described as "Navy".
Regards, Norm

[Heinz]

EJINPA, I do not mean to sound like I am trashing you Luger. It is in fairly good shape and the Baltic Sea Navy stamp on the grip is interesting. However, it is more of a "shooter" than a collectible because it has been modified. Those modifications were by an unidentified party at an unidentified place and time. It is what it is and ain't what it ain't.
Because it has a non-original barrel and an unidentified receiver I would suggest you have a competent gunsmith take a look at it to make sure there are no problems. After that you should have a ball shooting it. The Luger is an extraordinary shooter.
heinz

[EJINPA]

Ok, so ZERO collectible value at all? Just another 9mm pistol? I'm just glad no one suggested that it was some recently modified thing. That I know would have been wrong. I understand that there is much that collectors don't know about these things. Agreed, it is what it is. With all the question marks though, why the Navy stamp? Was that added before or after the gun was reworked?

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by EJINPA

With all the question marks though, why the Navy stamp? Was that added before or after the gun was reworked?

While this won't answer your question as to when, my example of a Nazi era reworked Imperial Navy Luger frame is yet another example of how Lugers were made serviceable. In my case, the company that reworked it is clearly marked as "Frankenschloss, Suhl". The frame is from an Imperial Navy Luger while the barrel is a replacement in .30 caliber. The receiver may be original but if it is, it's been scrubbed. At least part of the toggle train - perhaps all of it - isn't original to the rest of the gun. Franken und Lunenschloss were well known and reworked many Lugers. Yours is also a rework but by whom is unlikely to ever be known.

[DonVoigt]

Unlike Norm, I do "specialize" in Weimar lugers- though it is a very confused and confusing time and the lugers that were used are a challenge to understand and to explain!

I believe your pistol started life as a .30 caliber "commercial" luger, the barrel was replaced and numbered to the frame.
This could have been done in a navy workshop and the Ostsee marking applied then; or before in commercial trade only.

However, since the upper was not numbered to the lower when manufactured, it may have no original relation to the lower frame at all, and could have been assembled at a later date from a Navy marked lower frame and "an" upper of commercial origin. The Barrel was likely numbered when the barrel was changed or when the upper was mated to the O marked lower.

The Ostsee number of 1354 would have been added about 1934- at a time when the Reichsmarine(Weimar) Navy was building up and would soon become the Kreigsmarine(nazi) Navy.

So, either the pistol was in Navy hands before that date, and numbered to the Ostsee as a complete pistol, or was assembled later(postwar) from a collection of parts.

Long story, but the bottom line is that it is not possible to know when, where, or who assembled your luger in its current configuration.

Because of the unknown heritage, I would say it is an "interesting" shooter- due to the Ostee markings.

Value is whatever you or someone is willing to pay for an "interesting" luger. JMHO.

[Heinz]

"Zero collector value" Not really. It is worth a lot more than a used Glock.
JMHO