1906 Navy 1st Alt. #5539a on Gunbroker

[Norme]

Hy Guys,
As keeper of the Navy List I check the various dealer and auction sites periodically in search of new listings. Heck, it's a dirty job but someone's got to do it. This evening I came across this:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/936644743
Apart from all that white crap in the markings (a pet peeve of mine) how many red flags can you spot?
Norm

[spripple33]

I'll give it a shot. I like this game. This is how we learn!

Things that are definitely wrong are:
1. no halos around barrel s.n.
2. relieved sear bar
3. C/M on mag upside down & has floating crown, mag s.n. wrong
font & too small
4. grips s.n. wrong font & shouldn't have C/M marks

Possibly questionable:
1. crown & C/M marks on receiver & barrel don't look quite right
2. Wilhelmshaven unit mark looks stamped- usually engraved
3. serial numbers on the t.d. lever and sideplate look different sizes
4. "altered" GESICHERT safety marking looks too perfect
5. small parts possibly re-strawed

-Jason

[gunbugs]

I'd say the safety marking is definitely wrong.
Looks like the barrel has been relined from the photo of the muzzle.
No surprise that the mag has been screwed with.

[wlyon]

From some of the color variations looks like some cold blue was applied. Agree with the rest of the above. Bill

[spripple33]

I may have gotten a little carried away there but I feel pretty confident about the first four things I listed.
I still don't know about that GESICHERT marking though...
-Jason

[Norme]

Hi All,
1906 Navy 1st Alt. #5539a first appeared in "World of Lugers" back in 1977 and looking at it now it's apparent that it has "had a lot of work done", as they say in Hollywood. It has been refinished, somewhat haphazardly, the barrel has either been crowned or relined, (it's hard to tell which from the poor quality photos), new grips have been fitted and numbered to match, and it has a fake matching magazine.
If that wasn't enough the sear bar has been "relieved" to the later 1916 configuration. I'm somewhat uneasy about this conversion which seems to have been achieved by exchanging the sear bar with a shorter one from a 1908 or later gun with a face that slopes North West while the existing safety bar has a face that slopes North East. It may work, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.
In the absence of good photos I can't make a judgement about the barrel, but the grips are definitely new replacements, flat topped threes in the numbers are a sure sign as are the spurious Crown/M inspection marks.
The magazine has numbers that are too small, and then, of course, there are those flat topped threes!
Norm

[cirelaw]

Fred Datig was a noted collector and author in the early sixties~

[gunbugs]

I also found it a little odd that the tops of the W.W. dockyard markings are under the lower edge of the grip safety. I don't think I've seen that before. The safety had to have been removed when the letters were stamped.

[Yakman]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Fred Datig was a noted collector and author in the early sixties~

I don't know how long it took Datig to write "THE LUGER PISTOL (PISTOLE PARABELLUM)" but its first printing was in 1955.

Jack

[jeb111]

Thanks Norm that was fun! That is a great educational tool. I also second Gunbug’s observation about the grip safety being partially in the way of the unit mark.
Jim

[Norme]

I think the grip safety had to be removed prior to engraving the unit mark so that the frame could be clamped in a vise. Sometimes the engraver just misjudged the position of the unit mark relative to the absent grip safety.
Norm

[Karl]

As noted by Jason above, the unit mark on the Luger in question appears to be stamped rather than pantograph engraved. Although the lettering is filled in with white stuff, the corners of the W's are sharp compared to the example above from Norme.

KFS

[Norme]

I know this is somewhat confusing. Briefly, the Naval base at Wilhelmshaven seems to have been the only one to have used a pantograph engraving machine during the Imperial era. That does not mean that it was used exclusively, a fair amount of Wilhelmshaven naval equipment was stamped or engraved the old fashioned way, by hand.
Norm

[Mac Cat]

I don't know how long it took Datig to write "THE LUGER PISTOL (PISTOLE PARABELLUM)" but its first printing was in 1955.

He says he had being studying Lugers for 8 years, on page 12 of the author's notes. I think that it is pretty amazing that he was able to learn so much in such a short time period.

[cirelaw]

Like figuring out women!

[jeb111]

Bidding ends tonight and the price is up to $3875. Before spending that kind of money I don’t know why people don’t do some research. Some of the problems with the pistol are glaringly obvious or could be the bidders don’t care, that the pistol is close enough for them.
Jim

[Norme]

I don't know what you guys are doing right now but I'm sitting here in my gun room watching this never ending auction with two dumb bidders and only one winner, the seller. It was supposed to end half on hour ago but it's in it's third O.T. I decided to break out the good scotch that my son-in-law gave me for Xmas and drink to the loser, the real winner!
Norm

[gunbugs]

Over 5k and counting.....

[Norme]

Here's an update, we're now in our 4th or 5th O.T. and I'm getting low on Scotch.We are over 5k, if you can believe it! This is turning into the battle of the ages, you can smell the testosterone form here! I feel like a play-by-play commentator at a football game. I'll keep this up until the Scotch runs out.
Norm

[Norme]

In case any of you guys want to watch this auction in progress, the link is in Post #1 of this thread.
I'm tempted to describe it as a battle of giants, but actually it's a struggle of stupids.
Norm