Lanyard loop id

Vlim · 01-19-2003, 11:40 AM

Hi,

Does anyone recognize this type of lanyard loop?

I came across it this weekend and there are some clues, though of a speculative nature, that this might be a lanyard used by the Dutch Navy.

Pictures of KM (dutch navy) personnel wearing Lugers attached to a similar type of lanyard can be found in several Luger books, but I am in doubt. It might simply be a british lanyard or something completely different....

There is a faint stamp on the bottom leather piece where the letters INF or INE are visible.

Smell of the leather is 'old'...

Comments or suggestions?

Gerben

JohnF · 01-19-2003, 12:16 PM

Hi Gerben,
I don't think that it's British as I can't recall having seen a braided leather lanyard in British military service.
Co-incidentally, I also came across a lanyard, which was being sold as a Kriegsmarine item. I'm a little dubious about it as I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Kriegsmarine didn't use lanyards. Here's a pic:

Vlim · 01-21-2003, 10:27 AM

Hi,

Some more info: A colleague of mine, who is ex-dutch KM, recalls these lanyard types. The KM did use brown leather lanyards, but probably on a wide range of sidearms, including the FN Browning.

The stamp is probably all that remains of a maker's stamp.

Navy · 01-21-2003, 01:29 PM

The blue one looks like a lanyard for a bosun's pipe; the leather one is not like any lanyard I have seen that was luger.

Tom A.

lugerholsterrepair · 01-21-2003, 01:45 PM

Gerben, I have been doing extensive research on Luger lanyards for the last five years or more. This is an example of a Portugese Luger lanyard. They are relatively rare as they are quite fragile in their construction. It has been my opinion that they were not built to withstand what is normally expected of a military lanyard. Consequently they broke or were damaged and discarded. I cannot comment on what is left of the stampings that are present. In fact this type of lanyard is one that has really escaped much of my research because not much is known about them by anyone. In Luger Tips, the Lanyard identified as a Portugese is not. It is a German lanyard.

Gerben, I would be very interested in purchasing this lanyard if it is not something you plan to keep in your collection. If you do plan to keep it I would be interested in receiving your permission to use the photo in a publication I am planning. I would love to see the other side of the leather tab that connects to the metal swivel...Could you possibly measure it's length and tell me what it is? Please get back to me if you get the time, Jerry Burney

lugerholsterrepair · 01-21-2003, 11:29 PM

JohnF, Your leather and woven cording lanyard is interesting to say the least. I suspect that it might not be for a Luger. Why would there be such a long leather adjustment strap? It would serve no purpose as lanyards need only to be attached, not adjusted for length in this area. From what I can see of the photo it looks German however. I have never seen one of these . Jerry Burney

Lugerdoc · 01-22-2003, 10:09 AM

GvanV, I suspect that the braded lanyard that you show, is a fairly recent copy of the Portugese style as Jerry B. mentioned. I recall seeing these advertised years ago in the SGN by a dealer in Austria for about $25. Tom H.

lugerholsterrepair · 01-22-2003, 11:57 AM

Tom, Yes, I think you are probably correct. I would love to see this lanyard in person to try and determine it's authenticity. The metal swivel is in entirely too good a condition to be an original. The leather affixed to it however is very interesting at the point that it attaches to the swivel. About seven years ago I answered an ad for a Portugese lanyard and when it arrived I was astounded by it's tiney flimsy construction, an obvious fake. I cannot remember who I purchased it from. Jerry Burney

Vlim · 01-22-2003, 12:49 PM

Hi,

Feel free to use the picture.

I will try to get a better picture of the metal swivel and it's attachment point. The swivel is actually quite rusty and bent out of shape a little. Photo's do tend to hide these details.

Another detail that is not obvious on the photo are the wearing marks that are visible near the top of the cord, where it would be worn around the shoulder strap.

The leather has the smell only old leather has, so at least I'm convinced it's not recent, but perhaps too young to be Portugese. I will push my former-KM contact for more information

Also note that the KM was not an organization that cared much for standardisation. Take a look at the holsters they used: About any version that was usable was used in a number of colors like black, brown and white. So it wouldn't surprise me if the KM actually used lanyards that were originally designed for other countries.

I'll do some measuring as well...

lugerholsterrepair · 01-22-2003, 09:26 PM

Gerben, Thank you very much. The more I look at the metal swivel and accompanied with your further discription, I suppose it could be an original.The leather itself certainly leads me towards that idea. So little has been documented on the Portugese lanyard that there is no one I have been able to find who knows anything about them other than a general discription.

Some other interesting questions I have for you...Is the swivel plated or do you think it is steel in the white? I assume it is steel as you say there is some rust. Can you tell if the stitching is cotton, synthetic or linen? Jerry Burney

Vlim · 01-26-2003, 12:16 PM

Hi,

Did some additional scanning...
The image is big, but it shows lots of detail.

Just to see it all at once, I copied it and placed the link to the large picture here:
http://home.concepts.nl/~vlimmere/p08/lanyardhook.jpg

Hope that is okay, Ed

The leather 'lip' is exactly 8 cm in length on one side and 8.2 cm in length on the other. I can't make out the material that was used to stitch it, but the stitches clearly show up on the photo. The metal all looks solid steel, without any plating.

One other thing I noticed is a layer of cellophane-like material, sandwiched between the leather lips and the loop material. It looks like the material is used to strengthen the stitching.

Does anyone have any photo material of Portugese and/or Dutch KM soldiers wearing the lanyard loops? I'd love to compare those two.

Gerben

lugerholsterrepair · 01-26-2003, 12:57 PM

Gerben, Excellent photo"s!!! From what I can see the thread seems to be corded just as linen should be. It is certainly a natural material and not of modern manufacture. The wear and condition of the metal and leather leads me to believe you have a genuine period piece here.

I have many combat photo's of various people wearing lanyards however it is always difficult to see them in detail because of lighting, position etc. Many were sent to me by European collectors. I do not have any of Portugese soldiers wearing a lanyard. There are quite a few photo's of Dutch soldiers wearing lanyards in either Benders book or the Dutch Luger book, probably both.

Can you tell me the overall length of the lanyard? Thanks..Jerry burney

Vlim · 01-29-2003, 04:01 PM

Hi,

Some measures (in cm, i'm afraid )

Overall length of leather w/o metal clip: approx. 80 cms (that makes 160 cm if you would measure the whole loop).

Overall length of metal work:
clip is 4.4 cm, clipring is 1.65 cm,
connecting bit is 1.5 cm.

Overall diameter of the leather loop: 0.8 cm.
Overall diameter of a leather 'diamond': 1.8 cm.

Overall smell: Terrible

Shoulder wear marks on approx. 4 cm from the top of the loop (slight darkish discoloration, lightly squatted leather).

lugerholsterrepair · 01-29-2003, 10:08 PM

Gerben, Many thanks for the measurements. Jerry Burney

Alain · 01-30-2003, 07:22 AM

Gerben,

I confirm having the same lanyard metal loop with a Portugese origin. The German seller who lived in Angola and worked with Portugal confirmed this to me.
I will try to send pics. I have some problems with my digital camera.

Rgds,

Alain

lugerholsterrepair · 01-30-2003, 01:45 PM

Alain, I would appreciate any photo's you might be able to provide. Thanks Jerry Burney

[email protected]

Vlim · 02-02-2003, 03:11 AM

Hey all,

This is getting interesting! Now that we're pretty sure the loop is a Portugese model, I'm curious to find some documented confirmation that this loop was used by the Dutch 'Koninklijke Marine'as well.

Jerry, if you ever need better photo material for any publication, just let me know.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-02-2003, 10:29 AM

Gerben, Yes this is a very interesting subject to me. I wrote many letters to collectors all over the World and I am sad to say there is very littl known about the Portugese lanyard or it's use. I will continue my research and if anything shows up on your end please keep me in mind.

I appreciate the offer of better photo's but I believe I can use the one's you already have provided. Many thanks Gerben. Jerry Burney

Vlim · 02-09-2003, 02:16 AM

Hi Jerry,

Well one final remark about the use of the loop on a luger: When you attach the hook on a luger, it tends to scratch the ring on the gun a bit. So if these loops were in daily use on Portugese lugers, I'd expect visible scratch marks on the guns. Perhaps owners of Portugese lugers can verify this?

lugerholsterrepair · 02-09-2003, 06:54 AM

Gerben, Yes, this is an important point.It is similar to the P-38 lanyard hook and would tend to leave a scratch and or rubbing wear marks. Really not an ideal design. The German method of using a leather strap made a lot more sense.

It remindes me of the Audley holster and it's mechanism to hold the pistol in place, the spring loaded trigger knob. It too would leave it's telltale mark on a pistol.

Anyone with a Portugese Luger, please let us hear from you...Jerry Burney

01-19-2003, 11:40 AM	#1
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Lanyard loop id Hi, Does anyone recognize this type of lanyard loop? I came across it this weekend and there are some clues, though of a speculative nature, that this might be a lanyard used by the Dutch Navy. Pictures of KM (dutch navy) personnel wearing Lugers attached to a similar type of lanyard can be found in several Luger books, but I am in doubt. It might simply be a british lanyard or something completely different.... There is a faint stamp on the bottom leather piece where the letters INF or INE are visible. Smell of the leather is 'old'... Comments or suggestions? Gerben

01-21-2003, 01:45 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Gerben, I have been doing extensive research on Luger lanyards for the last five years or more. This is an example of a Portugese Luger lanyard. They are relatively rare as they are quite fragile in their construction. It has been my opinion that they were not built to withstand what is normally expected of a military lanyard. Consequently they broke or were damaged and discarded. I cannot comment on what is left of the stampings that are present. In fact this type of lanyard is one that has really escaped much of my research because not much is known about them by anyone. In Luger Tips, the Lanyard identified as a Portugese is not. It is a German lanyard. Gerben, I would be very interested in purchasing this lanyard if it is not something you plan to keep in your collection. If you do plan to keep it I would be interested in receiving your permission to use the photo in a publication I am planning. I would love to see the other side of the leather tab that connects to the metal swivel...Could you possibly measure it's length and tell me what it is? Please get back to me if you get the time, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-21-2003, 11:29 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	JohnF, Your leather and woven cording lanyard is interesting to say the least. I suspect that it might not be for a Luger. Why would there be such a long leather adjustment strap? It would serve no purpose as lanyards need only to be attached, not adjusted for length in this area. From what I can see of the photo it looks German however. I have never seen one of these . Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-22-2003, 10:09 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	GvanV, I suspect that the braded lanyard that you show, is a fairly recent copy of the Portugese style as Jerry B. mentioned. I recall seeing these advertised years ago in the SGN by a dealer in Austria for about $25. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

01-22-2003, 11:57 AM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Tom, Yes, I think you are probably correct. I would love to see this lanyard in person to try and determine it's authenticity. The metal swivel is in entirely too good a condition to be an original. The leather affixed to it however is very interesting at the point that it attaches to the swivel. About seven years ago I answered an ad for a Portugese lanyard and when it arrived I was astounded by it's tiney flimsy construction, an obvious fake. I cannot remember who I purchased it from. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-19-2003, 12:16 PM	#2
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Gerben, I don't think that it's British as I can't recall having seen a braided leather lanyard in British military service. Co-incidentally, I also came across a lanyard, which was being sold as a Kriegsmarine item. I'm a little dubious about it as I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Kriegsmarine didn't use lanyards. Here's a pic:

01-21-2003, 10:27 AM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Some more info: A colleague of mine, who is ex-dutch KM, recalls these lanyard types. The KM did use brown leather lanyards, but probably on a wide range of sidearms, including the FN Browning. The stamp is probably all that remains of a maker's stamp.

01-21-2003, 01:29 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The blue one looks like a lanyard for a bosun's pipe; the leather one is not like any lanyard I have seen that was luger. Tom A.

01-22-2003, 12:49 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Feel free to use the picture. I will try to get a better picture of the metal swivel and it's attachment point. The swivel is actually quite rusty and bent out of shape a little. Photo's do tend to hide these details. Another detail that is not obvious on the photo are the wearing marks that are visible near the top of the cord, where it would be worn around the shoulder strap. The leather has the smell only old leather has, so at least I'm convinced it's not recent, but perhaps too young to be Portugese. I will push my former-KM contact for more information Also note that the KM was not an organization that cared much for standardisation. Take a look at the holsters they used: About any version that was usable was used in a number of colors like black, brown and white. So it wouldn't surprise me if the KM actually used lanyards that were originally designed for other countries. I'll do some measuring as well...

01-22-2003, 09:26 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Gerben, Thank you very much. The more I look at the metal swivel and accompanied with your further discription, I suppose it could be an original.The leather itself certainly leads me towards that idea. So little has been documented on the Portugese lanyard that there is no one I have been able to find who knows anything about them other than a general discription. Some other interesting questions I have for you...Is the swivel plated or do you think it is steel in the white? I assume it is steel as you say there is some rust. Can you tell if the stitching is cotton, synthetic or linen? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-26-2003, 12:16 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Did some additional scanning... The image is big, but it shows lots of detail. Just to see it all at once, I copied it and placed the link to the large picture here: http://home.concepts.nl/~vlimmere/p08/lanyardhook.jpg Hope that is okay, Ed The leather 'lip' is exactly 8 cm in length on one side and 8.2 cm in length on the other. I can't make out the material that was used to stitch it, but the stitches clearly show up on the photo. The metal all looks solid steel, without any plating. One other thing I noticed is a layer of cellophane-like material, sandwiched between the leather lips and the loop material. It looks like the material is used to strengthen the stitching. Does anyone have any photo material of Portugese and/or Dutch KM soldiers wearing the lanyard loops? I'd love to compare those two. Gerben

01-26-2003, 12:57 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Gerben, Excellent photo"s!!! From what I can see the thread seems to be corded just as linen should be. It is certainly a natural material and not of modern manufacture. The wear and condition of the metal and leather leads me to believe you have a genuine period piece here. I have many combat photo's of various people wearing lanyards however it is always difficult to see them in detail because of lighting, position etc. Many were sent to me by European collectors. I do not have any of Portugese soldiers wearing a lanyard. There are quite a few photo's of Dutch soldiers wearing lanyards in either Benders book or the Dutch Luger book, probably both. Can you tell me the overall length of the lanyard? Thanks..Jerry burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-29-2003, 04:01 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Some measures (in cm, i'm afraid ) Overall length of leather w/o metal clip: approx. 80 cms (that makes 160 cm if you would measure the whole loop). Overall length of metal work: clip is 4.4 cm, clipring is 1.65 cm, connecting bit is 1.5 cm. Overall diameter of the leather loop: 0.8 cm. Overall diameter of a leather 'diamond': 1.8 cm. Overall smell: Terrible Shoulder wear marks on approx. 4 cm from the top of the loop (slight darkish discoloration, lightly squatted leather).

01-29-2003, 10:08 PM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Gerben, Many thanks for the measurements. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-30-2003, 07:22 AM	#15
Alain Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: france Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gerben, I confirm having the same lanyard metal loop with a Portugese origin. The German seller who lived in Angola and worked with Portugal confirmed this to me. I will try to send pics. I have some problems with my digital camera. Rgds, Alain

01-30-2003, 01:45 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Alain, I would appreciate any photo's you might be able to provide. Thanks Jerry Burney [email protected] __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-02-2003, 03:11 AM	#17
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hey all, This is getting interesting! Now that we're pretty sure the loop is a Portugese model, I'm curious to find some documented confirmation that this loop was used by the Dutch 'Koninklijke Marine'as well. Jerry, if you ever need better photo material for any publication, just let me know.

02-02-2003, 10:29 AM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Gerben, Yes this is a very interesting subject to me. I wrote many letters to collectors all over the World and I am sad to say there is very littl known about the Portugese lanyard or it's use. I will continue my research and if anything shows up on your end please keep me in mind. I appreciate the offer of better photo's but I believe I can use the one's you already have provided. Many thanks Gerben. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-09-2003, 02:16 AM	#19
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Jerry, Well one final remark about the use of the loop on a luger: When you attach the hook on a luger, it tends to scratch the ring on the gun a bit. So if these loops were in daily use on Portugese lugers, I'd expect visible scratch marks on the guns. Perhaps owners of Portugese lugers can verify this?

02-09-2003, 06:54 AM	#20
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Gerben, Yes, this is an important point.It is similar to the P-38 lanyard hook and would tend to leave a scratch and or rubbing wear marks. Really not an ideal design. The German method of using a leather strap made a lot more sense. It remindes me of the Audley holster and it's mechanism to hold the pistol in place, the spring loaded trigger knob. It too would leave it's telltale mark on a pistol. Anyone with a Portugese Luger, please let us hear from you...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."