Struck Or Engraved...?

Pete Ebbink · 11-20-2002, 05:24 PM

This is a close-up photo of the chamber marking on my recently acquired 1923 DWM commerical swiss shooter (with replacement 8", non-Arty barrel).

Would like to get others' opinions : Was this chamber marking struck with a die or engraved ?

I am leaning towards die struck...

(John Sabato; I have e-mailed you some high-rez jpegs; per your request...)

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Ron Wood · 11-20-2002, 05:43 PM

You are leaning in the right direction. It is roll-die impressed, and the roll direction was from left to right as evidenced by the upset or "piled up" material on the right periphery of the marking. Now, having said that, I would guess from the unevenness of the rays on the sunburst that the die was a commercial or gunsmith die from a house such as Flukiger (but not Flukiger) and not from the Swiss Waffenfabrik Bern. From your very excellent photo, if it was an engraved marking, the "chop marks" from engraving would probably be evident. There isn't any, so that further indicates a die stamp.

ViggoG · 11-20-2002, 05:52 PM

Pete,
I cannot be certain, "But", Close examination of the "Swiss Emblem" give me the feeling that it coulld have been done with "Acid Engraving", (a form of etching that uses an electrode and DC Power supply to enhance the etching action.
This also shows a similar charactistic of pitting or cratering that appears in some electrical discharge machining. Also I see no evidence of rotary tooling marks within the Emblem.
Also I see no evidence of the material having been displaced, compacted, or glazed which is charactistic of impact tooling.
Or perhaps my old eyes fool me even with binocular magnifiers.
ViggoG <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

EDIT: [img]redface.gif[/img] They Did FOOL me !!!
After enlargement and enhancing it is obvious that Ron has correctly defined the method of impressing the emblem.
But I am even more puzzled by the cratering that appears in the impression. Could this be an effect of the Roll Die beginning to break down ?
[img]redface.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
ViggoG

John Sabato · 11-20-2002, 05:52 PM

thanks for the photos Pete

I find it interesting that the number of sunrays or petals of the sunburst varies depending on the pistol. I would have thought that this official emblem would have a "standard" number of these sunrays to be considered legitimate.

I have observed in the last three months, emblems such as this with 80 and also 88 of these petals. This particular one has 80, but it is the crudest of the emblems I have seen.

Ron Wood · 11-20-2002, 06:44 PM

ViggoG,
The cratering that is evident in the marking is due largely to the rust blue process. When carding off the rust, smooth surfaces only exhibit mild, almost imperceptible, roughness. That is what gives rust blueing its "satin" appearance. In markings, the carding does not get down into the recesses, thereby leaving a much more textured finish. Look at any original rust blued Luger and with a magnifier observe the bottom of serial numbers, crests, etc. and you will see that they display this type of texture. You can see on the high points of the Swiss crest that they are much more shiny and smooth than the recesses.

Pete Ebbink · 11-22-2002, 02:54 PM

Thanks all for the help...

My shooter's serial number is # 81872. Per Still's Weimar luger book, on page 13; this gun fell into the .30 cal or 9 mm Commerical range of # 74845-87000 and not a later Swiss Commerical contract range (est. 50 guns only) of # 87132-87141.

So my shooter had a Swiss chamber marking, roll-die "added" at some point in time. Maybe in Switzerland by a local gunsmith who had a very "tired" roll die or by some shade-tree gunsmith here in the States...

Who knows...who cares...? It's only a shooter but very accurate and lots of fun at the range...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Pete Ebbink · 11-22-2002, 02:56 PM

For those of you that have "real" Swiss DWM lugers, could you count the "petals' as mentioned by John Sabato. Is 80 or 88 petals "correct" for true DWM-Swiss lugers ? Or are both correct ?

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-20-2002, 05:24 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Struck Or Engraved...? This is a close-up photo of the chamber marking on my recently acquired 1923 DWM commerical swiss shooter (with replacement 8", non-Arty barrel). Would like to get others' opinions : Was this chamber marking struck with a die or engraved ? I am leaning towards die struck... (John Sabato; I have e-mailed you some high-rez jpegs; per your request...) Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-20-2002, 05:43 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	You are leaning in the right direction. It is roll-die impressed, and the roll direction was from left to right as evidenced by the upset or "piled up" material on the right periphery of the marking. Now, having said that, I would guess from the unevenness of the rays on the sunburst that the die was a commercial or gunsmith die from a house such as Flukiger (but not Flukiger) and not from the Swiss Waffenfabrik Bern. From your very excellent photo, if it was an engraved marking, the "chop marks" from engraving would probably be evident. There isn't any, so that further indicates a die stamp. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-20-2002, 05:52 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	thanks for the photos Pete I find it interesting that the number of sunrays or petals of the sunburst varies depending on the pistol. I would have thought that this official emblem would have a "standard" number of these sunrays to be considered legitimate. I have observed in the last three months, emblems such as this with 80 and also 88 of these petals. This particular one has 80, but it is the crudest of the emblems I have seen. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-20-2002, 06:44 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	ViggoG, The cratering that is evident in the marking is due largely to the rust blue process. When carding off the rust, smooth surfaces only exhibit mild, almost imperceptible, roughness. That is what gives rust blueing its "satin" appearance. In markings, the carding does not get down into the recesses, thereby leaving a much more textured finish. Look at any original rust blued Luger and with a magnifier observe the bottom of serial numbers, crests, etc. and you will see that they display this type of texture. You can see on the high points of the Swiss crest that they are much more shiny and smooth than the recesses. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-20-2002, 05:52 PM	#3
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, I cannot be certain, "But", Close examination of the "Swiss Emblem" give me the feeling that it coulld have been done with "Acid Engraving", (a form of etching that uses an electrode and DC Power supply to enhance the etching action. This also shows a similar charactistic of pitting or cratering that appears in some electrical discharge machining. Also I see no evidence of rotary tooling marks within the Emblem. Also I see no evidence of the material having been displaced, compacted, or glazed which is charactistic of impact tooling. Or perhaps my old eyes fool me even with binocular magnifiers. ViggoG <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> EDIT: [img]redface.gif[/img] They Did FOOL me !!! After enlargement and enhancing it is obvious that Ron has correctly defined the method of impressing the emblem. But I am even more puzzled by the cratering that appears in the impression. Could this be an effect of the Roll Die beginning to break down ? [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> ViggoG

11-22-2002, 02:54 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks all for the help... My shooter's serial number is # 81872. Per Still's Weimar luger book, on page 13; this gun fell into the .30 cal or 9 mm Commerical range of # 74845-87000 and not a later Swiss Commerical contract range (est. 50 guns only) of # 87132-87141. So my shooter had a Swiss chamber marking, roll-die "added" at some point in time. Maybe in Switzerland by a local gunsmith who had a very "tired" roll die or by some shade-tree gunsmith here in the States... Who knows...who cares...? It's only a shooter but very accurate and lots of fun at the range... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-22-2002, 02:56 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	For those of you that have "real" Swiss DWM lugers, could you count the "petals' as mentioned by John Sabato. Is 80 or 88 petals "correct" for true DWM-Swiss lugers ? Or are both correct ? Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />