Obliterated Markings

Dwight Gruber · 06-25-2002, 03:08 AM

As a comment in discussion in a topic down-forum, John Sabato suggested I post a question here, so here goes--

I picked up a 1917 chamber dated Navy at a gun show last weekend. The metal is complete and correct and matching (don't ask about the magazine or grips!), but the finish is only about 50%, a bit of pitting here and there (not much, truthfully), and some spot touch-up reblue.

All the proofs and date markings which one would expect are there. My question concerns a marking which is not.

Something, some marking, has been removed from the frame, beginning just under the serial number where the letter suffix would be (there is no suffix, as can be seen from the serial# on the barrel), and continues along the curvature at the front of the frame and ends just in front of the trigger guard.

Is there any kind of inscription or stamping in this position known on other 1914 Navys? Or, is this one of those never-to-be-solved-so-get-over-it-and-move-on mysteries?

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 06-25-2002, 03:14 PM

Dwight
Is there any possibility you could post a picture? Does the area of the removal extend the full width of the frame or is it a narrow strip down the middle? The first thought that came to my mind is that someone had soldered on a frame extension to add a forearm to the Luger, and at a later date it was removed, leaving a mark. That is only a WAG.

Dwight Gruber · 06-25-2002, 09:30 PM

Full frame width. I'll be able to post a picture in a couple of weeks. Thanks.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 06-26-2002, 12:01 AM

My readings in The Dutch Luger book indicates that some Dutch lugers (Navies, P-06, and P-08 models may have had a small brass unit ID tag soldered in this postion. Later Dutch lugers had a larger brass plate soldered to the left side of the frame.

Could this 1914 Navy have had one of these small brass plates soldered at this location at the top of the front of the trigger guard...?

Just a wild guess from a luger beginner...

Big Norm · 06-26-2002, 12:39 AM

The Dutch Lugers sometimes had brass plates affixed to the left side of the frame just behind the side plate. The navy Lugers did not have serial numbers on the side, just proof marks and a date on the finger of the side plate. The area in question would be on the front of the frame just below the barrel. A picture would be interesting.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 06-26-2002, 01:05 AM

Hello Norm,

Respectfully; I think Dutch lugers had brass plates in two locations.

I do not have The Dutch Luger book in the hotel with me this week...but the first placement of a very small brass plate was on the front of the frame, just at the top, front surface of the trigger guard. Later the Dutch went to a much larger brass plate on the left side of the frame when their system of unit ID markings were expanded and the characters/letters needed more space...

It would be nice when Dwight posts a photo, so we can all see the location he describes...

Edward Tinker · 06-26-2002, 02:10 AM

Pete your memeory is good, the Dutch Luger had a small plate (for a very short time) on the front trigger guard, just a minute, let me go look at the book......

...the pistols had their unit mark and weapon # struck at the backside of the frame... In 1919 the method of marking was changed....soldered to the front of the frame...In 1937 another change... their plates positioned at the underside of the guard... at the beginning of 1939 the next change occured, plates were repositioned to left side of the lugers frame.

There were captured German Lugers that would have had German markings and it is unknown if they were marked by the Dutch. (very small number, approx 40)

Other Navy Lugers were purchased new in the late 30's.

So it is possible that this is Dutch Navy, but very slim. More info on markings and pics when you have time Dwight

[img]wink.gif[/img]

John Sabato · 06-26-2002, 11:38 AM

I am curious as to how the brass plates were attached to the Luger frame...

Silver solder? Brass rivets?

Does the book say Ed, or does anyone who owns one know?

Ron Wood · 06-26-2002, 12:17 PM

They were soldered, and not necessarily silver-solder. Some I have seen look like ordinary tin/lead solder.

Big Norm · 06-26-2002, 03:00 PM

AH-H-H-H-H! The beauty of the forum at its best.
Big Norm

Dwight Gruber · 06-27-2002, 12:59 AM

When I posted the question I didn't really expect that there would be an answer, y'all have surprised me, so I've tried to flatbed-scan the appropriate spots. These are very difficult places to scan, so I hope that they are good enough to be useful.

The filed area starts just under the serial number; it is a little more difficult to tell where it ends, just between the nub of the locking lug spring and the beginning of the trigger guard. It is definitely filed, and has been spot-blued.

Ed's post up-screen made me take note of a couple other spots on the gun. The back of the frame has the appearance of having been scrubbed. Its not deep, perhaps not enough to remove any markings, it looks like it could as easily be a clumsy attempt to remove surface rust. It has been spot-blued.

The other spot is on the right side of the frame, between the trigger guard and the locking lug. Although it is very difficult to see in the scan, it is definitely scrubbed, and has also been spot-blued.

Now I'm actually going to try to post these pictures. I'll be very interested to hear what you all think.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 06-27-2002, 01:30 AM

Dwight it looks like something on the front trigger guard, but almost looks like it JUST looks like something?

It would make me wonder also, but my gut feeling is that it is jsut a mark, but heck I don't know? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Dwight Gruber · 06-27-2002, 02:17 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>Dwight it looks like something on the front trigger guard, but almost looks like it JUST looks like something?

It would make me wonder also, but my gut feeling is that it is jsut a mark, but heck I don't know? [img]confused.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote>

If you are talking about the almost-a-circle at the bottom of the frame, that fooled me for a minute too, until I realized that it is the takedown lever spring-nub which has been filed along with the rest.

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 06-27-2002, 02:23 AM

With all the emphasis on the filing and flaws, I'm feeling a need to demonstrate that this Navy is more than just a scratched-up mess. Herewith, then, the evidence of the whole.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 06-27-2002, 03:36 PM

Dwight,

I concur that almost all of the spots appear to be a vigorous attempt to remove surface rust and spot blue... My only area of concern is on the front of the frame where it appears that the area that has been ground, not rubbed, could be a successful attempt to remove the suffix letter...

This could be a bad thing... if you are not sure of the history and ownership lineage of the piece I would be very careful that you document the sale carefully to protect yourself... other than that caution, I think it is a fine piece and wish it were mine...

Since it has already been visibly altered, I think it would be a fine candidate for a total doll job rust blue restoration by Thor... but I would also solicit input recommendations and comments from our resident Navy Luger guru's Tom A and Derek S about refinishing now that you have posted the photos showing the alterations...

The following material was added after analysis of the photos that Dwight posted - JS) I have enlarged your scan, and enhanced a portion of it with color balance and some additional contrast. I have also taken the enhanced image and turned it into a color negative image for comparison. Sometimes the camera (or in this case scanner) can see what the naked eye cannot. In the red circles that I have painted over the images, I think I can see the faint image of a suffix letter that I can't quite make out... A better and sharper image would be required for that, or a 10x jeweler's loupe in good light.

Now that I have seen it up close, the spot looks like it may have had heavy surface rust from extended, muzzle down, holster storage, and some ambitious application of either emory paper or steel wool has worn down the suffix letter area during the rust removal so that the letter is hardly visible. I don't think the alterations to your Navy are sinister in nature, just an attempt to make the pistol look better...

Nice Gun!

Dwight Gruber · 06-27-2002, 10:41 PM

Interesting forensic technique. The serial number on the barrel (matching) has no letter suffix, the serial number on my 1917 Artillery does have a suffix both places, Kenyon (p. 156) allows for this model to have a serial number with no suffix. I feel confident that this is not a ground-off suffix.

As far as why it -is- ground...one guess is as good as another at this point, I guess. I'm pleasantly astonished at the wide range of interesting and educational response from such a long-odds question [img]smile.gif[/img]

--Dwight

Johnny Peppers · 06-28-2002, 12:04 AM

My vote goes for someone simply trying to remove pitting from the front of the frame. The sideplate also shows signs of being worked down around the hump. Additionally, the grips seem to have been gone over with a checkering tool.

06-25-2002, 03:08 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Obliterated Markings As a comment in discussion in a topic down-forum, John Sabato suggested I post a question here, so here goes-- I picked up a 1917 chamber dated Navy at a gun show last weekend. The metal is complete and correct and matching (don't ask about the magazine or grips!), but the finish is only about 50%, a bit of pitting here and there (not much, truthfully), and some spot touch-up reblue. All the proofs and date markings which one would expect are there. My question concerns a marking which is not. Something, some marking, has been removed from the frame, beginning just under the serial number where the letter suffix would be (there is no suffix, as can be seen from the serial# on the barrel), and continues along the curvature at the front of the frame and ends just in front of the trigger guard. Is there any kind of inscription or stamping in this position known on other 1914 Navys? Or, is this one of those never-to-be-solved-so-get-over-it-and-move-on mysteries? --Dwight

06-25-2002, 03:14 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Dwight Is there any possibility you could post a picture? Does the area of the removal extend the full width of the frame or is it a narrow strip down the middle? The first thought that came to my mind is that someone had soldered on a frame extension to add a forearm to the Luger, and at a later date it was removed, leaving a mark. That is only a WAG. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-26-2002, 02:10 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Pete your memeory is good, the Dutch Luger had a small plate (for a very short time) on the front trigger guard, just a minute, let me go look at the book...... ...the pistols had their unit mark and weapon # struck at the backside of the frame... In 1919 the method of marking was changed....soldered to the front of the frame...In 1937 another change... their plates positioned at the underside of the guard... at the beginning of 1939 the next change occured, plates were repositioned to left side of the lugers frame. There were captured German Lugers that would have had German markings and it is unknown if they were marked by the Dutch. (very small number, approx 40) Other Navy Lugers were purchased new in the late 30's. So it is possible that this is Dutch Navy, but very slim. More info on markings and pics when you have time Dwight [img]wink.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-26-2002, 11:38 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I am curious as to how the brass plates were attached to the Luger frame... Silver solder? Brass rivets? Does the book say Ed, or does anyone who owns one know? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-26-2002, 12:17 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	They were soldered, and not necessarily silver-solder. Some I have seen look like ordinary tin/lead solder. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-25-2002, 09:30 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Full frame width. I'll be able to post a picture in a couple of weeks. Thanks. --Dwight

06-26-2002, 12:01 AM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	My readings in The Dutch Luger book indicates that some Dutch lugers (Navies, P-06, and P-08 models may have had a small brass unit ID tag soldered in this postion. Later Dutch lugers had a larger brass plate soldered to the left side of the frame. Could this 1914 Navy have had one of these small brass plates soldered at this location at the top of the front of the trigger guard...? Just a wild guess from a luger beginner...

06-26-2002, 12:39 AM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	The Dutch Lugers sometimes had brass plates affixed to the left side of the frame just behind the side plate. The navy Lugers did not have serial numbers on the side, just proof marks and a date on the finger of the side plate. The area in question would be on the front of the frame just below the barrel. A picture would be interesting. Big Norm

06-26-2002, 01:05 AM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Norm, Respectfully; I think Dutch lugers had brass plates in two locations. I do not have The Dutch Luger book in the hotel with me this week...but the first placement of a very small brass plate was on the front of the frame, just at the top, front surface of the trigger guard. Later the Dutch went to a much larger brass plate on the left side of the frame when their system of unit ID markings were expanded and the characters/letters needed more space... It would be nice when Dwight posts a photo, so we can all see the location he describes...

06-26-2002, 03:00 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	AH-H-H-H-H! The beauty of the forum at its best. Big Norm

06-27-2002, 12:59 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	When I posted the question I didn't really expect that there would be an answer, y'all have surprised me, so I've tried to flatbed-scan the appropriate spots. These are very difficult places to scan, so I hope that they are good enough to be useful. The filed area starts just under the serial number; it is a little more difficult to tell where it ends, just between the nub of the locking lug spring and the beginning of the trigger guard. It is definitely filed, and has been spot-blued. Ed's post up-screen made me take note of a couple other spots on the gun. The back of the frame has the appearance of having been scrubbed. Its not deep, perhaps not enough to remove any markings, it looks like it could as easily be a clumsy attempt to remove surface rust. It has been spot-blued. The other spot is on the right side of the frame, between the trigger guard and the locking lug. Although it is very difficult to see in the scan, it is definitely scrubbed, and has also been spot-blued. Now I'm actually going to try to post these pictures. I'll be very interested to hear what you all think. --Dwight

06-27-2002, 01:30 AM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Dwight it looks like something on the front trigger guard, but almost looks like it JUST looks like something? It would make me wonder also, but my gut feeling is that it is jsut a mark, but heck I don't know? [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-27-2002, 02:17 AM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong>Dwight it looks like something on the front trigger guard, but almost looks like it JUST looks like something? It would make me wonder also, but my gut feeling is that it is jsut a mark, but heck I don't know? [img]confused.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote> If you are talking about the almost-a-circle at the bottom of the frame, that fooled me for a minute too, until I realized that it is the takedown lever spring-nub which has been filed along with the rest. --Dwight

06-27-2002, 02:23 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	With all the emphasis on the filing and flaws, I'm feeling a need to demonstrate that this Navy is more than just a scratched-up mess. Herewith, then, the evidence of the whole. --Dwight

06-27-2002, 03:36 PM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Dwight, I concur that almost all of the spots appear to be a vigorous attempt to remove surface rust and spot blue... My only area of concern is on the front of the frame where it appears that the area that has been ground, not rubbed, could be a successful attempt to remove the suffix letter... This could be a bad thing... if you are not sure of the history and ownership lineage of the piece I would be very careful that you document the sale carefully to protect yourself... other than that caution, I think it is a fine piece and wish it were mine... Since it has already been visibly altered, I think it would be a fine candidate for a total doll job rust blue restoration by Thor... but I would also solicit input recommendations and comments from our resident Navy Luger guru's Tom A and Derek S about refinishing now that you have posted the photos showing the alterations... The following material was added after analysis of the photos that Dwight posted - JS) I have enlarged your scan, and enhanced a portion of it with color balance and some additional contrast. I have also taken the enhanced image and turned it into a color negative image for comparison. Sometimes the camera (or in this case scanner) can see what the naked eye cannot. In the red circles that I have painted over the images, I think I can see the faint image of a suffix letter that I can't quite make out... A better and sharper image would be required for that, or a 10x jeweler's loupe in good light. Now that I have seen it up close, the spot looks like it may have had heavy surface rust from extended, muzzle down, holster storage, and some ambitious application of either emory paper or steel wool has worn down the suffix letter area during the rust removal so that the letter is hardly visible. I don't think the alterations to your Navy are sinister in nature, just an attempt to make the pistol look better... Nice Gun! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-27-2002, 10:41 PM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Interesting forensic technique. The serial number on the barrel (matching) has no letter suffix, the serial number on my 1917 Artillery does have a suffix both places, Kenyon (p. 156) allows for this model to have a serial number with no suffix. I feel confident that this is not a ground-off suffix. As far as why it -is- ground...one guess is as good as another at this point, I guess. I'm pleasantly astonished at the wide range of interesting and educational response from such a long-odds question [img]smile.gif[/img] --Dwight

06-28-2002, 12:04 AM	#17
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My vote goes for someone simply trying to remove pitting from the front of the frame. The sideplate also shows signs of being worked down around the hump. Additionally, the grips seem to have been gone over with a checkering tool.