Bulge around the botttom

Roadkill · 11-04-2002, 08:03 PM

Settle down Ed, I'm referring to ammo. Been categorizing my 9mm cases into long -.745+", just right- .739-741", and short - .735-738". As I'd get a long or short one I'd toss it in a marked coffe can. Finally got up enough and loaded the long ones first, kept oal right, used 5.6g of unique with a 225g cast bullet. No problems at all. Then used the short ones. Same everything. Big problems. Failure to feed repeatedly. Slide would not close on my P-1 or the HPC. Finally gave up, brought them back, problem was the short ones were bulging at the bottom where they would not fit in the sizer die.
Measured them, allowed was .394", all were above 390", the just right and long ones were all about .384-388". Mixed brass, all used several times but the short ones. Am I doing something wrong again? And what is the recommended load for 255g lrn .45 in Unique? My books only go up to 230g but if patterns hold it should be about 6.5g. Last question. My 1911A1 firing pin retaining plate keeps on dropping down and locking up the slide. Would a new spring keep that from happening or do I need a new plate?

Thanks

rk

Doubs · 11-04-2002, 08:37 PM

RK, it sounds as if your cases aren't being sized properly in the web area OR the forward part of the case isn't being reduced to a diameter that will allow it to chamber completely. I often use the barrel from the pistol I'll be using the cartridges in and drop them one at a time into the chamber to see how well they fit. I also keep a spare barrel around for some cartridges just for that purpose.

The dropping firing pin retainer plate (also locks the extractor in place) could be a too-thin plate, a weak firing pin spring, a too short or bent firing pin or a combination of the above.

Johnny Peppers · 11-04-2002, 08:38 PM

RK,
I am assuming that the 225 gr. bullet in the 9mm was a typo, but anyway the shorter case should not make any difference in the case head expansion. I have seen 9mm reloads from SMG brass that would not chamber properly due to an expanded case head, but if your brass is from the same pistol there should be no problem. Are you screwing the sizing die down until it bumps the shellholder in the full up position? It needs to bump fairly hard as most presses have a certain amount of spring that you would not expect.
Are you loading .45ACP or .45 Colt with the 255 gr. bullet? One reloading site has a 260 gr. load for the .45ACP, but it is a revolver load. It uses 5.4 gr. of Unique for 760fps.
Check the spring tension on the firing pin in your 1911A1 by pushing the firing pin in with the slide locked back. I have never heard of this happening, but I suppose the firing pin spring could become weak enough not to put sufficient pressure on the firing pin to retain the firing pin stop plate during recoil.

Roadkill · 11-04-2002, 09:23 PM

The 9mm is 125g, sorry, and I'm not bringing the sizer die all the way down on the shellholder. My RCBS book says to make contact with the die, then back off 1/4 to 1/2 turn. That's probably the problem. The .45 is .45acp, and its an unmessesd with Remington 1911A1 made in 1945, so the spring is most likely weak. I picked up a .357 Colt Trooper last week, shot all my store bought .38 & .357, will get my dies for it this week and will start reloading asap. Is there any case differences between .38 special, 38+P, and .357? Or, as endlessly pondered , does size matter or is it all in the load?

rk

Johnny Peppers · 11-04-2002, 10:38 PM

Rick,
The primary reason for the .357 case being .15 longer is to prevent their use in a .38 special. You can cook up some hefty .357 loads in .38 special cases, but just remember what they are. Elmer Keith blew up a few S&W .44 Specials by using extremely heavy loads in them before the factory .44 Magnum was developed.
The old die sets came in either .38 Special or .357 Magnum, and everyone learned that you could load the .357 in .38 Special dies, but not vice-versa. Now the dies are sold as .38 Special/.357 Magnum. The same goes for .44 Special and .44 Magnum.

Johnny Peppers · 11-05-2002, 12:08 AM

Rick,
We use to make a carry load for the aluminum frame .38's using the factory 148 gr. wadcutter bullets loaded backwards. It made a hell of a hollowpoint with the huge hollow base turned forward, but you couldn't load them too hot or the middle would blow out of them.

AGE · 11-05-2002, 12:27 AM

Roadkill,

I have read that some gunsmiths peen the edges of the firing pin retainer plate to make it a tighter fit in the slide so your problem doesn't occur. I don't know if they mean a punch to raise the metal or just hitting it to expand the width a little. I have never had that problem with many 1911s and probably 50,000 rounds.

Johnny,

I have tried loading the hollow bases backward to get a really big hollow point. My S&W model 36 groups (normally about 3") wouldn't stay on the paper. Very inaccurate.

Roadkill · 11-05-2002, 08:29 AM

The dies I ordered are 38/357, so no problem there. I'll work on the retaining plate and start off with 5.6g with the 255g and see how they work in my Webley MKVI first, the Colt Trooper is a very solid chunk of steel so should be alright as long as I don't do something stupid again. Thanks all, really appreciate the availability of info.

rk

unspellable · 11-05-2002, 09:13 AM

If you compare the OAL of the average factory load in 38 Spec vs 357 Mag and 44 Spec vs 44 Mag, you will find no difference. Hence, with modern brass, no difference in powder room. The longer case is solely to prevent chambering in revolvers not meant to take the magnum pressures.

Of course this changes a little with hand loads where the OAL may vary. Both cartridges were originally developed for the N frame S&W which does not have an overly long cylinder, limiting their OAL. On the other hand the K frame was originally designed to take the 38 Special and the 32-20. The 32-20 is a longer cartridge. You can load 357 to a longer OAL in an S&W M19 than in an M27 or Colt.

Be sure to keep track of the OAL in order to have the correct powder room for the load. There are hot loads that depend on an OAL longer than standard to keep the pressure within limits.

Doubs · 11-05-2002, 01:44 PM

Just a couple of thoughts to add to the conversation. Lyman makes a mold for the .38/.357 (Thompson design?) that is a SWC with two distinct crimping grooves. The bullet is a gas-check design and weighs 155 grains, IIRC. It was designed specifically for the .38 Special case and can be used to duplicate .38 Special loads or .357 Magnum loads. Which cartridge you choose to duplicate is regulated by the crimping groove used and, of course, the powder load. This is a setup that Skeeter Skelton wrote up several times. It's a great bullet that allows using the common .38 Special case for magnum loads rather than the more expensive .357 case.

There is a difference in the length of Colt and S&W .357 Magnum cylinders and loads that will work in a S&W may be too long for the Colt.

Artsi · 11-12-2002, 09:23 PM

Many parts are manufactured with quite large tolerances in original/aftermarket 1911 parts. Many parts need attention in installation.

I had same probs with my firing pin retainer plate. Few taps with a mig weld along sides of the plate and some careful filing made it percect.

My 1911 had a wide ejection spray pattern. I sourced it partially to extractor that had a chance to rotate to some degree. Again I had the mig weld done. Two taps to both ends of firing pin plate groove.

---

Reloading issue.
To help me resize my brass all the way down, I had my resizing die ground a touch at the bottom. This reduced the guiding funnel.
I also had my shell holder plate ground thinner.
These two mods together allowed me to resize my brass really deep. No need ever to check any ammo after it had bee reloaded. Never had any chambering problems after said modifications.

Only downside of grinding funnel shorter on a resizer die is that if the brass sticks to my fingers as I take my hand away, it moves a fraction of an inch. That sometimes is enough to bring reloading stroke to halt as brass hits prematurely to die bottom.
Small price to pay for the advantages it brings along.

-Artsi

11-04-2002, 08:03 PM	#1
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Bulge around the botttom Settle down Ed, I'm referring to ammo. Been categorizing my 9mm cases into long -.745+", just right- .739-741", and short - .735-738". As I'd get a long or short one I'd toss it in a marked coffe can. Finally got up enough and loaded the long ones first, kept oal right, used 5.6g of unique with a 225g cast bullet. No problems at all. Then used the short ones. Same everything. Big problems. Failure to feed repeatedly. Slide would not close on my P-1 or the HPC. Finally gave up, brought them back, problem was the short ones were bulging at the bottom where they would not fit in the sizer die. Measured them, allowed was .394", all were above 390", the just right and long ones were all about .384-388". Mixed brass, all used several times but the short ones. Am I doing something wrong again? And what is the recommended load for 255g lrn .45 in Unique? My books only go up to 230g but if patterns hold it should be about 6.5g. Last question. My 1911A1 firing pin retaining plate keeps on dropping down and locking up the slide. Would a new spring keep that from happening or do I need a new plate? Thanks rk

11-05-2002, 12:27 AM	#7
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Roadkill, I have read that some gunsmiths peen the edges of the firing pin retainer plate to make it a tighter fit in the slide so your problem doesn't occur. I don't know if they mean a punch to raise the metal or just hitting it to expand the width a little. I have never had that problem with many 1911s and probably 50,000 rounds. Johnny, I have tried loading the hollow bases backward to get a really big hollow point. My S&W model 36 groups (normally about 3") wouldn't stay on the paper. Very inaccurate. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

11-12-2002, 09:23 PM	#11
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Many parts are manufactured with quite large tolerances in original/aftermarket 1911 parts. Many parts need attention in installation. I had same probs with my firing pin retainer plate. Few taps with a mig weld along sides of the plate and some careful filing made it percect. My 1911 had a wide ejection spray pattern. I sourced it partially to extractor that had a chance to rotate to some degree. Again I had the mig weld done. Two taps to both ends of firing pin plate groove. --- Reloading issue. To help me resize my brass all the way down, I had my resizing die ground a touch at the bottom. This reduced the guiding funnel. I also had my shell holder plate ground thinner. These two mods together allowed me to resize my brass really deep. No need ever to check any ammo after it had bee reloaded. Never had any chambering problems after said modifications. Only downside of grinding funnel shorter on a resizer die is that if the brass sticks to my fingers as I take my hand away, it moves a fraction of an inch. That sometimes is enough to bring reloading stroke to halt as brass hits prematurely to die bottom. Small price to pay for the advantages it brings along. -Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

11-04-2002, 08:37 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,694 Times in 556 Posts	RK, it sounds as if your cases aren't being sized properly in the web area OR the forward part of the case isn't being reduced to a diameter that will allow it to chamber completely. I often use the barrel from the pistol I'll be using the cartridges in and drop them one at a time into the chamber to see how well they fit. I also keep a spare barrel around for some cartridges just for that purpose. The dropping firing pin retainer plate (also locks the extractor in place) could be a too-thin plate, a weak firing pin spring, a too short or bent firing pin or a combination of the above.

11-04-2002, 08:38 PM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	RK, I am assuming that the 225 gr. bullet in the 9mm was a typo, but anyway the shorter case should not make any difference in the case head expansion. I have seen 9mm reloads from SMG brass that would not chamber properly due to an expanded case head, but if your brass is from the same pistol there should be no problem. Are you screwing the sizing die down until it bumps the shellholder in the full up position? It needs to bump fairly hard as most presses have a certain amount of spring that you would not expect. Are you loading .45ACP or .45 Colt with the 255 gr. bullet? One reloading site has a 260 gr. load for the .45ACP, but it is a revolver load. It uses 5.4 gr. of Unique for 760fps. Check the spring tension on the firing pin in your 1911A1 by pushing the firing pin in with the slide locked back. I have never heard of this happening, but I suppose the firing pin spring could become weak enough not to put sufficient pressure on the firing pin to retain the firing pin stop plate during recoil.

11-04-2002, 09:23 PM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	The 9mm is 125g, sorry, and I'm not bringing the sizer die all the way down on the shellholder. My RCBS book says to make contact with the die, then back off 1/4 to 1/2 turn. That's probably the problem. The .45 is .45acp, and its an unmessesd with Remington 1911A1 made in 1945, so the spring is most likely weak. I picked up a .357 Colt Trooper last week, shot all my store bought .38 & .357, will get my dies for it this week and will start reloading asap. Is there any case differences between .38 special, 38+P, and .357? Or, as endlessly pondered , does size matter or is it all in the load? rk

11-04-2002, 10:38 PM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Rick, The primary reason for the .357 case being .15 longer is to prevent their use in a .38 special. You can cook up some hefty .357 loads in .38 special cases, but just remember what they are. Elmer Keith blew up a few S&W .44 Specials by using extremely heavy loads in them before the factory .44 Magnum was developed. The old die sets came in either .38 Special or .357 Magnum, and everyone learned that you could load the .357 in .38 Special dies, but not vice-versa. Now the dies are sold as .38 Special/.357 Magnum. The same goes for .44 Special and .44 Magnum.

11-05-2002, 12:08 AM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Rick, We use to make a carry load for the aluminum frame .38's using the factory 148 gr. wadcutter bullets loaded backwards. It made a hell of a hollowpoint with the huge hollow base turned forward, but you couldn't load them too hot or the middle would blow out of them.

11-05-2002, 08:29 AM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	The dies I ordered are 38/357, so no problem there. I'll work on the retaining plate and start off with 5.6g with the 255g and see how they work in my Webley MKVI first, the Colt Trooper is a very solid chunk of steel so should be alright as long as I don't do something stupid again. Thanks all, really appreciate the availability of info. rk

11-05-2002, 09:13 AM	#9
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	If you compare the OAL of the average factory load in 38 Spec vs 357 Mag and 44 Spec vs 44 Mag, you will find no difference. Hence, with modern brass, no difference in powder room. The longer case is solely to prevent chambering in revolvers not meant to take the magnum pressures. Of course this changes a little with hand loads where the OAL may vary. Both cartridges were originally developed for the N frame S&W which does not have an overly long cylinder, limiting their OAL. On the other hand the K frame was originally designed to take the 38 Special and the 32-20. The 32-20 is a longer cartridge. You can load 357 to a longer OAL in an S&W M19 than in an M27 or Colt. Be sure to keep track of the OAL in order to have the correct powder room for the load. There are hot loads that depend on an OAL longer than standard to keep the pressure within limits.

11-05-2002, 01:44 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,694 Times in 556 Posts	Just a couple of thoughts to add to the conversation. Lyman makes a mold for the .38/.357 (Thompson design?) that is a SWC with two distinct crimping grooves. The bullet is a gas-check design and weighs 155 grains, IIRC. It was designed specifically for the .38 Special case and can be used to duplicate .38 Special loads or .357 Magnum loads. Which cartridge you choose to duplicate is regulated by the crimping groove used and, of course, the powder load. This is a setup that Skeeter Skelton wrote up several times. It's a great bullet that allows using the common .38 Special case for magnum loads rather than the more expensive .357 case. There is a difference in the length of Colt and S&W .357 Magnum cylinders and loads that will work in a S&W may be too long for the Colt.