Another Krieghoff at Simpson's

tracyp · 07-07-2007, 09:44 AM

A P-Code with sideframe inscription.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=3992

drbuster · 07-07-2007, 12:06 PM

Fully priced, I might add!

Big Norm · 07-08-2007, 03:50 AM

Fully priced might be the understatement of the year. I have trouble messing with Simpsons pictures and so I can't make out the side inscription, but the barrel seems to be in pretty rough shape. The side plates bluing doesn't look like it matches the bluing on the frame. Oh well, people can ask any price that they want. What they get may be entirely different.
Big Norm
___________________________________
Reality is eternal punishment for a perfectionist

Pete Ebbink · 07-08-2007, 12:12 PM

Navy · 07-08-2007, 09:32 PM

If Bob and Brad are selling it, they will stand behind it.

Tom A

wlyon · 07-08-2007, 09:35 PM

I know that percent bluing is subjective but how can this be 97% in anyones rating? Maybe some one can explain the side engraved wear as compared with the rest? Oh well whatever the market will bear. Bill

Big Norm · 07-09-2007, 01:05 AM

Whats there to stand behind? For $27,900, the gun should be 'new-in-box' mint. Its not. While giving some leeway due to questionable photograpy, I would still say that this HK is not 97%. Not with that tip of the barrel wear and bluing where the inscription is. I could say more, but then we would be discussing photographic quality, which would be, admittedly, quibling. The focus here is the price, which is absurd. But as I said earlier, people can ask whatever they want, getting it is another story.

But I have been surprized before in this world of the internet. I remember when a Borchardt encased set came up for sale. Very, very nice set. Everyone here thought that it would go for about $30,000 to $35,000. It ended up going for $56,000 or so and many jaws were left hanging at the conclusion of that bidding. So you just don't know whats going to happen.

Incidently, Pete, nice attempt at trying to focus on the side inscription. The clarity just wasn't there.
Big Norm

Mike Jones · 07-09-2007, 01:27 PM

What makes this gun worth this kind of money is the six inch bbl and being .30 cal as well. A very rare Krieghoff.

Mike Jones

Navy · 07-10-2007, 07:56 AM

Thank you Mike. I agree completely. My estimate is there were less than 50 of these produced. The gun is probably priced a trifle low based on auction hammer prices of late.

Tom A

Pete Ebbink · 07-10-2007, 09:58 PM

Tom/Mike,

Here is a snap shot of the underside of this 6", 7,65 mm barrel.

Are the serial number stampings what one expects to see ?

Imperial Arms · 07-10-2007, 10:04 PM

There should be NO serial number on the barrel. It also appears that the alignment mark is out of place, most likely indicating that someone replaced the barrel to create a rarer HK Luger. Something is not right about this item!

Albert

Pete Ebbink · 07-11-2007, 12:11 PM

Guys,

Randall Gibson (on page 36 in his book on HK Lugers) states when discussing 150 mm barrels that :

"... A handful of Krieghoff commercial examples with this naval lenth barrel has been examined. Generally, they are P Codes in the 5 digit serial group. Proofing is the early commercial Crown N. Without exception, the caliber is 9 mm Parabellum...".

With passing time and more HK guns reported after the book came out, does anyone know if Gibson 'reversed' himself on the 9 mm versus 7,65 mm issue regarding such 6" barrels ? Did he acknowledge 7,65 mm barrels as being factory-optioned ?

Navy · 07-11-2007, 02:23 PM

I don't know if he ever recanted but there are a *few* original 7.65s with the factory 150MM barrels.

Tom A

Pete Ebbink · 07-11-2007, 04:07 PM

Thanks, Tom...

BTW...what do you think of the serial numbers on the Simpson offering...not necessarily if a factory barrel should or should not have them , but rather the "ragged" fashion the numbers seem applied ?

Would also like your thoughts on what Albert pointed out...a witness mark on the barrel shoulder which appears way to the right side of center...

Navy · 07-11-2007, 09:54 PM

The extreme rarity of these is such that until I had the gun in my hands and could put the loupe on it, I would not care to comment. I will state, however, that if Bob and Brad are advertising it as righteous, I would tend to be less apprehensive. Trust but verify....

Tom A

Imperial Arms · 07-12-2007, 02:44 AM

It is my opinion that the 150 mm in caliber 7,65 mm would be the correct caliber for this 'target-sporting' pistol in the late 1930's. If we consider another type of target pistol made around the same period (1938-39), it would be the extremely rare Walther HP (in single-action with a wood grip) also chambered for the 7,65 mm cartridge and not the 9 mm cartridge. It has been reported that the 7,65 mm cartridge was the preferred cartridge for target shooting (in calibers larger than .22 LR) than compared to the 9 mm cartridge because the former had a flatter trajectory. When the P-38 in caliber 9 mm was adopted by the German Army, the 7,65 mm cartridge continued to be used in the commercial market (such as the Mauser Swedish Commercial Luger) and for target shooting.

After having the opportunity to examine #P603 with a 150 mm barrel, which is absolutely genuine without a doubt (except for the wrong magazine), I believe that these long barrels were supplied from another manufacturer, possibly Mauser. The hue/tone of the salt blue on the long barrels tend to be a shade lighter in color as a result of the different density/hardness of the metal than compared to the rest of the pistol which leads me to believe that the barrels were not made at the Krieghoff factory.

I could be wrong in my opinion, but my logic leads me in that direction.

Albert

07-07-2007, 09:44 AM	#1
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Another Krieghoff at Simpson's A P-Code with sideframe inscription. http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=3992

07-08-2007, 09:35 PM	#6
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,637 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,561 Times in 956 Posts	I know that percent bluing is subjective but how can this be 97% in anyones rating? Maybe some one can explain the side engraved wear as compared with the rest? Oh well whatever the market will bear. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

07-07-2007, 12:06 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Fully priced, I might add!

07-08-2007, 03:50 AM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Fully priced might be the understatement of the year. I have trouble messing with Simpsons pictures and so I can't make out the side inscription, but the barrel seems to be in pretty rough shape. The side plates bluing doesn't look like it matches the bluing on the frame. Oh well, people can ask any price that they want. What they get may be entirely different. Big Norm ___________________________________ Reality is eternal punishment for a perfectionist

07-08-2007, 12:12 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

07-08-2007, 09:32 PM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	If Bob and Brad are selling it, they will stand behind it. Tom A

07-09-2007, 01:05 AM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Whats there to stand behind? For $27,900, the gun should be 'new-in-box' mint. Its not. While giving some leeway due to questionable photograpy, I would still say that this HK is not 97%. Not with that tip of the barrel wear and bluing where the inscription is. I could say more, but then we would be discussing photographic quality, which would be, admittedly, quibling. The focus here is the price, which is absurd. But as I said earlier, people can ask whatever they want, getting it is another story. But I have been surprized before in this world of the internet. I remember when a Borchardt encased set came up for sale. Very, very nice set. Everyone here thought that it would go for about $30,000 to $35,000. It ended up going for $56,000 or so and many jaws were left hanging at the conclusion of that bidding. So you just don't know whats going to happen. Incidently, Pete, nice attempt at trying to focus on the side inscription. The clarity just wasn't there. Big Norm

07-09-2007, 01:27 PM	#8
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	What makes this gun worth this kind of money is the six inch bbl and being .30 cal as well. A very rare Krieghoff. Mike Jones

07-10-2007, 07:56 AM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Thank you Mike. I agree completely. My estimate is there were less than 50 of these produced. The gun is probably priced a trifle low based on auction hammer prices of late. Tom A

07-10-2007, 09:58 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Tom/Mike, Here is a snap shot of the underside of this 6", 7,65 mm barrel. Are the serial number stampings what one expects to see ?

07-10-2007, 10:04 PM	#11
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	There should be NO serial number on the barrel. It also appears that the alignment mark is out of place, most likely indicating that someone replaced the barrel to create a rarer HK Luger. Something is not right about this item! Albert

07-11-2007, 12:11 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Guys, Randall Gibson (on page 36 in his book on HK Lugers) states when discussing 150 mm barrels that : "... A handful of Krieghoff commercial examples with this naval lenth barrel has been examined. Generally, they are P Codes in the 5 digit serial group. Proofing is the early commercial Crown N. Without exception, the caliber is 9 mm Parabellum...". With passing time and more HK guns reported after the book came out, does anyone know if Gibson 'reversed' himself on the 9 mm versus 7,65 mm issue regarding such 6" barrels ? Did he acknowledge 7,65 mm barrels as being factory-optioned ?

07-11-2007, 02:23 PM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I don't know if he ever recanted but there are a few original 7.65s with the factory 150MM barrels. Tom A

07-11-2007, 04:07 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Tom... BTW...what do you think of the serial numbers on the Simpson offering...not necessarily if a factory barrel should or should not have them , but rather the "ragged" fashion the numbers seem applied ? Would also like your thoughts on what Albert pointed out...a witness mark on the barrel shoulder which appears way to the right side of center...

07-11-2007, 09:54 PM	#15
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The extreme rarity of these is such that until I had the gun in my hands and could put the loupe on it, I would not care to comment. I will state, however, that if Bob and Brad are advertising it as righteous, I would tend to be less apprehensive. Trust but verify.... Tom A

07-12-2007, 02:44 AM	#16
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	It is my opinion that the 150 mm in caliber 7,65 mm would be the correct caliber for this 'target-sporting' pistol in the late 1930's. If we consider another type of target pistol made around the same period (1938-39), it would be the extremely rare Walther HP (in single-action with a wood grip) also chambered for the 7,65 mm cartridge and not the 9 mm cartridge. It has been reported that the 7,65 mm cartridge was the preferred cartridge for target shooting (in calibers larger than .22 LR) than compared to the 9 mm cartridge because the former had a flatter trajectory. When the P-38 in caliber 9 mm was adopted by the German Army, the 7,65 mm cartridge continued to be used in the commercial market (such as the Mauser Swedish Commercial Luger) and for target shooting. After having the opportunity to examine #P603 with a 150 mm barrel, which is absolutely genuine without a doubt (except for the wrong magazine), I believe that these long barrels were supplied from another manufacturer, possibly Mauser. The hue/tone of the salt blue on the long barrels tend to be a shade lighter in color as a result of the different density/hardness of the metal than compared to the rest of the pistol which leads me to believe that the barrels were not made at the Krieghoff factory. I could be wrong in my opinion, but my logic leads me in that direction. Albert