Broken Extractor... Rebuild or Replace, any recommendations please?

1917garkunkel · 11-23-2014, 08:43 PM

Hello,

Well I got out to the range and fired the 1917--the first time fired in 20+ years.

I was pleased with the accuracy. I tried Blazer and Sellier & Bellot 115 gr rounds. I found the Blazer to work a little better, stove piping about 1 out of 6 shots.

When i took the gun apart after shooting I noticed this nastiness on the business end of the extractor (see pics)

I'm surprised it ejected at all!

So I'm wondering if any of you have ever had a piece like this to be built up with micro welding, then machined it back down to proper shape. I think this is my preferred route.
Aside from that, i could simply replace it. What do you all think? I'd appreciate any ideas on rough cost for these options, if you know.

thank you everybody!
-Ross

lugerholsterrepair · 11-23-2014, 08:51 PM

Ross, I take it this is numbered to your pistol?

1917garkunkel · 11-23-2014, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Ross, I take it this is numbered to your pistol?

Yeah... This Artillery is a big 'almost' in regards to #s and collectibility, but for sentimental reasons, rebuilding would be my first choice... I'd do the machining, (i think!) but that welding is black magic to me--if its even possible.

the extractor is matching to the pistol. only the rear toggle link is unoriginal, and the barrel has been modified such that its originality or lack there of is unknown

lugerholsterrepair · 11-23-2014, 09:31 PM

Ross, If you are capable of doing the machining I bet the part can be adequately welded. There is someone on here who knows..Gale Morgan or Ted Green would know for sure. You might also try Charles Danner. All these bluers use welder's they know about.

I just sent this thread to a machinist I use..He will have some suggestions for sure.

alvin · 11-23-2014, 09:48 PM

>> I'm surprised it ejected at all!

Recoil energy is transferred to the bolt without extractor, the empty case also got its share of recoil energy, but the weight empty case is too small, its share of recoil energy is consumed quickly by attrition. The function of extractor is to bind light-weight case with heavy bolt, so the empty case can be reliably extracted and then ejected. Without this extractor binding,,, at least on Astra 900 (a type of Spanish Broomhandle), 6 or 7 cases can be ejected, 3-4 rounds fail. Pistol becomes unreliable, but still works 60-70% of time.

1917garkunkel · 11-23-2014, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

>> I'm surprised it ejected at all!

Recoil energy is transferred to the bolt without extractor, the empty case also got its share of recoil energy, but the weight empty case is too small, its share of recoil energy is consumed quickly by attrition. The function of extractor is to bind light-weight case with heavy bolt, so the empty case can be reliably extracted and then ejected. Without this extractor binding,,, at least on Astra 900 (a type of Spanish Broomhandle), 6 or 7 cases can be ejected, 3-4 rounds fail. Pistol becomes unreliable, but still works 60-70% of time.

Hmm... cool. Utterly sensible that the empty case is on it's way rearward with or with out the hook on the extractor's assistance. Thank you for this observation

1917garkunkel · 11-23-2014, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Ross, If you are capable of doing the machining I bet the part can be adequately welded. There is someone on here who knows..Gale Morgan or Ted Green would know for sure. You might also try Charles Danner. All these bluers use welder's they know about.

I just sent this thread to a machinist I use..He will have some suggestions for sure.

Thanks Jerry, i appreciate the list of names/thoughts on this.

Vlim · 11-24-2014, 02:23 PM

Look into laser welding. With that technique it is possible to weld on the square mm...

rhuff · 11-24-2014, 06:32 PM

If you are able to get your numbered extractor welded, and I hope that you can, I would suggest that you not use it for range work again. An aftermarket extractor is relatively inexpensive, and usually requires only minimal fitting to be 100% functional. Then if you were to break the aftermarket unit....no harm, no foul!!

I have broken 2-3 of these old extractors over the years(I shoot my Lugers a lot) and just install new aftermarket ones for function. The new steel holds up very well at the range.

alvin · 11-24-2014, 08:56 PM

Is it a numbered part? If yes, laser welding is an option. For laser welding service, I recommend Microarc Welding in Worcester MA:

http://microarcwelding.com/

They offer excellent service, including post-welding micro-machining. Cost some $$, but it's definitely a new experience. There are a few gun makers in the area, they use laser welding service for prototype modification, much faster and cheaper than changing the "jigs".

alanint · 11-25-2014, 01:26 AM

If you post the number the old extractor has, one of the parts gurus may be able to replace it with a similarly numbered DWM part for less than what micro welding might cost you.

1917garkunkel · 11-25-2014, 07:22 PM

I've inquired with Microarc, am awaiting a reply. I'll post here when they respond with pricing, feasibility.

In the meantime, that's a good idea to post up a WTB for the numbered part.

I'll look for the area on the forum where that is done, and if anybody here has a #37 extractor lying about... holler!
-R

1917garkunkel · 12-05-2014, 03:12 AM

Lil update:

Microarc can and will do the work. $100--reasonable. (weld up + shape)

In the meantime i purchased one of the reproduction pieces on ebay, $35. the thing is pretty freakin ugly, makes the original look like a gem, and i would definitely pay the extra $15 for the genuine article if i could do it over. It is fitted to the gun now. I plan on going back to the range this weekend to see if it does what it's supposed to.

I've looked into repro shoulder boards and have decided to get one.
From my understanding of the rules discussed (in the below link) i will be illegal until i re-install an artillery rear toggle link. then of course i'll have no rear sight, as my original arty rear sight was excised at some point... all it takes is loads of money i suppose.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...shoulder+board

Ron Wood · 12-05-2014, 11:18 AM

Ross,
If your 1917 still has the original 8" barrel even though the rear sight is gone, it is still an original LP08 and attaching a repro stock should not be considered illegal IMHO.
Ron
P.S. It would be neat to acquire an original or repro LP08 rear sight. You could then machine off the rear sight on your current toggle and be good to go!

sheepherder · 12-05-2014, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

It would be neat to acquire an original or repro LP08 rear sight. You could then machine off the rear sight on your current toggle and be good to go!

He would need a base for the LP-08 rear sight. (Other thread; his has been machined/ground off). There are some floating around to allow the LP-08 rear sight to be mounted on Mauser rifle barrels, like the one below. I think they are from long-barrel Luger attempts (carbines, whatever). Mine came with the LP-08 sight mounted, and the 'sleeve' exactly fits 7.65 Mauser rifle barrels.

...But much too big for Luger artillery barrels...

Ron Wood · 12-05-2014, 03:33 PM

Thanks Rich. Didn't know about the removed base. Too bad.

1917garkunkel · 12-05-2014, 10:49 PM

Thanks for the consideration on this guys.
The thought never crossed my mind to simply make an arty rear toggle out of what i've got--good thinking.

I've also been toying with the idea of getting a reconditioned artillery barrel, with sights intact, and the proper rear toggle link fitted to gun (Lugerman has this as a package on his web page to convert non artilleries to arty. I of course would simply be making an artillery into a complete, in stock form.)

I like the sleeve idea too... more than one way around the barn here as well.

1917garkunkel · 12-07-2014, 05:29 PM

More fun info.

Got back to the range this morning to prove the new extractor.
Made 5 shots, ejected cases perfectly... then, broke my breech block--Yaaaay!

A little half-moon shaped section of the back wall (at 12 oclock pos.) that holds in the firing pin spring retainer decided it wanted to be elsewhere... and did indeed go gleefully to that place.

Long drive, short day.

I'm beginning to think I should do what my dad did: Put gun in box in basement, never look at gun.

rhuff · 12-07-2014, 07:17 PM

Sorry too hear about your bad luck......sometimes one just can't win, no matter what. Well, if you are going to have your extractor micro welded, then just include the breachblock and have it repaired also. If you want to continue to shoot your Luger, then do as many of us do and purchase a repo breachblock and fit it to your receiver. They take a bit more fitting then an extractor, but not too bad. I feel sure that Tom(Lugerdoc) has some, and I believe that Numrich and Sarco may well also. Just a thought.

1917garkunkel · 12-24-2014, 05:10 PM

Awrite!!

back to the range -AGAIN- and this time.... all good stuff!
i ended up getting a used breech block, and after some minor filing, it fit just fine.
Went out this past sunday morning and put 200 rounds of federal 115gr through it: 0 extraction problems and 3 FTFs --no problem as far as i'm concerned!

Naturally i won't include all the other targets with the crappy shots i made, but here is a sheet from the end of the day, after i'd really become acclimated with the trigger.
These are all 1 hand, 45' with rests between shots. the dots are 3.5" dia. there's a couple damn good 5-shot groups on there! i'm very happy with the artillery, and i have fully released concerns about maintaining collectibility--screw it, now i can just shoot.

i think the pic is coming out sideways... i shot it right side up so impacts were landing a little left and low. i've since adjusted the front sight.

11-23-2014, 08:43 PM	#1
1917garkunkel User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Broken Extractor... Rebuild or Replace, any recommendations please? Hello, Well I got out to the range and fired the 1917--the first time fired in 20+ years. I was pleased with the accuracy. I tried Blazer and Sellier & Bellot 115 gr rounds. I found the Blazer to work a little better, stove piping about 1 out of 6 shots. When i took the gun apart after shooting I noticed this nastiness on the business end of the extractor (see pics) I'm surprised it ejected at all! So I'm wondering if any of you have ever had a piece like this to be built up with micro welding, then machined it back down to proper shape. I think this is my preferred route. Aside from that, i could simply replace it. What do you all think? I'd appreciate any ideas on rough cost for these options, if you know. thank you everybody! -Ross Attached Thumbnails

11-23-2014, 08:51 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ross, I take it this is numbered to your pistol? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-23-2014, 09:31 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ross, If you are capable of doing the machining I bet the part can be adequately welded. There is someone on here who knows..Gale Morgan or Ted Green would know for sure. You might also try Charles Danner. All these bluers use welder's they know about. I just sent this thread to a machinist I use..He will have some suggestions for sure. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-05-2014, 11:18 AM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Ross, If your 1917 still has the original 8" barrel even though the rear sight is gone, it is still an original LP08 and attaching a repro stock should not be considered illegal IMHO. Ron P.S. It would be neat to acquire an original or repro LP08 rear sight. You could then machine off the rear sight on your current toggle and be good to go! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-05-2014, 03:33 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Thanks Rich. Didn't know about the removed base. Too bad. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-23-2014, 09:48 PM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	>> I'm surprised it ejected at all! Recoil energy is transferred to the bolt without extractor, the empty case also got its share of recoil energy, but the weight empty case is too small, its share of recoil energy is consumed quickly by attrition. The function of extractor is to bind light-weight case with heavy bolt, so the empty case can be reliably extracted and then ejected. Without this extractor binding,,, at least on Astra 900 (a type of Spanish Broomhandle), 6 or 7 cases can be ejected, 3-4 rounds fail. Pistol becomes unreliable, but still works 60-70% of time.

11-24-2014, 02:23 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Look into laser welding. With that technique it is possible to weld on the square mm...

11-24-2014, 06:32 PM	#9
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	If you are able to get your numbered extractor welded, and I hope that you can, I would suggest that you not use it for range work again. An aftermarket extractor is relatively inexpensive, and usually requires only minimal fitting to be 100% functional. Then if you were to break the aftermarket unit....no harm, no foul!! I have broken 2-3 of these old extractors over the years(I shoot my Lugers a lot) and just install new aftermarket ones for function. The new steel holds up very well at the range.

11-24-2014, 08:56 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Is it a numbered part? If yes, laser welding is an option. For laser welding service, I recommend Microarc Welding in Worcester MA: http://microarcwelding.com/ They offer excellent service, including post-welding micro-machining. Cost some $$, but it's definitely a new experience. There are a few gun makers in the area, they use laser welding service for prototype modification, much faster and cheaper than changing the "jigs".

11-25-2014, 01:26 AM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	If you post the number the old extractor has, one of the parts gurus may be able to replace it with a similarly numbered DWM part for less than what micro welding might cost you.

11-25-2014, 07:22 PM	#12
1917garkunkel User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	I've inquired with Microarc, am awaiting a reply. I'll post here when they respond with pricing, feasibility. In the meantime, that's a good idea to post up a WTB for the numbered part. I'll look for the area on the forum where that is done, and if anybody here has a #37 extractor lying about... holler! -R

12-05-2014, 03:12 AM	#13
1917garkunkel User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Lil update: Microarc can and will do the work. $100--reasonable. (weld up + shape) In the meantime i purchased one of the reproduction pieces on ebay, $35. the thing is pretty freakin ugly, makes the original look like a gem, and i would definitely pay the extra $15 for the genuine article if i could do it over. It is fitted to the gun now. I plan on going back to the range this weekend to see if it does what it's supposed to. I've looked into repro shoulder boards and have decided to get one. From my understanding of the rules discussed (in the below link) i will be illegal until i re-install an artillery rear toggle link. then of course i'll have no rear sight, as my original arty rear sight was excised at some point... all it takes is loads of money i suppose. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...shoulder+board

12-05-2014, 10:49 PM	#17
1917garkunkel User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Thanks for the consideration on this guys. The thought never crossed my mind to simply make an arty rear toggle out of what i've got--good thinking. I've also been toying with the idea of getting a reconditioned artillery barrel, with sights intact, and the proper rear toggle link fitted to gun (Lugerman has this as a package on his web page to convert non artilleries to arty. I of course would simply be making an artillery into a complete, in stock form.) I like the sleeve idea too... more than one way around the barn here as well. Attached Thumbnails

12-07-2014, 05:29 PM	#18
1917garkunkel User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	More fun info. Got back to the range this morning to prove the new extractor. Made 5 shots, ejected cases perfectly... then, broke my breech block--Yaaaay! A little half-moon shaped section of the back wall (at 12 oclock pos.) that holds in the firing pin spring retainer decided it wanted to be elsewhere... and did indeed go gleefully to that place. Long drive, short day. I'm beginning to think I should do what my dad did: Put gun in box in basement, never look at gun. Attached Thumbnails

12-07-2014, 07:17 PM	#19
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	Sorry too hear about your bad luck......sometimes one just can't win, no matter what. Well, if you are going to have your extractor micro welded, then just include the breachblock and have it repaired also. If you want to continue to shoot your Luger, then do as many of us do and purchase a repo breachblock and fit it to your receiver. They take a bit more fitting then an extractor, but not too bad. I feel sure that Tom(Lugerdoc) has some, and I believe that Numrich and Sarco may well also. Just a thought.

12-24-2014, 05:10 PM	#20
1917garkunkel User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Awrite!! back to the range -AGAIN- and this time.... all good stuff! i ended up getting a used breech block, and after some minor filing, it fit just fine. Went out this past sunday morning and put 200 rounds of federal 115gr through it: 0 extraction problems and 3 FTFs --no problem as far as i'm concerned! Naturally i won't include all the other targets with the crappy shots i made, but here is a sheet from the end of the day, after i'd really become acclimated with the trigger. These are all 1 hand, 45' with rests between shots. the dots are 3.5" dia. there's a couple damn good 5-shot groups on there! i'm very happy with the artillery, and i have fully released concerns about maintaining collectibility--screw it, now i can just shoot. i think the pic is coming out sideways... i shot it right side up so impacts were landing a little left and low. i've since adjusted the front sight. Attached Thumbnails