1906 Luger System Rifle

DonS · 11-01-2016, 02:17 PM

This may have been discussed before or is known to some of the members. Im sure that many of the members have never heard of it. The M1906 German Army Luger System test rifle in 7.92mm with a 5 shot internal magazine that is loaded with stripper clips. Less than 10 were produced but were not adopted due to feeding problems. Just 2 are known to survive. The lever on the receiver tang activates a take down that releases the trigger guard. I would like to credit Vern Bryant of GDC for the photos and description.

DavidJayUden · 11-01-2016, 02:50 PM

Fascinating! 7.92 (8mm Mauser) seems like a lot of pressure against that toggle joint, but I'm sure that they thought of that at the time...

ithacaartist · 11-01-2016, 05:01 PM

Very interesting. I've seen pics of the toggle system on a rifle, but that one flexed horizontally, on the right side. This prototype is somehow more satisfying...

Feeding problems? Who'd have thought!

mrerick · 11-01-2016, 05:29 PM

Hey now... Maxim had the toggle mechanism working in a machine gun!

We know that Mauser worked on several different approaches for a semi-automatic high power rifle for Germany. He never really succeeded.

Some of the designs included toggle based mechanisms. Since Georg Luger didn't mind stealing other people's ideas (including filing a patent on Mauser's 3 lug bolt system in Luger's own name) Mauser and others didn't mind appropriating the basic systems approaches used by others.

Many of the Mauser designs required greased cartridges, which the military found unacceptable. The problem was extraction, and they were not yet experimenting with fluted cartridge chambers to cope with the issue...

DavidJayUden · 11-01-2016, 08:02 PM

Maxim or was it Vickers that used the toggle?
dju

Dwight Gruber · 11-01-2016, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Very interesting. I've seen pics of the toggle system on a rifle, but that one flexed horizontally, on the right side.

The horizontal action weapon was a SMG.

--Dwight

gunbugs · 11-01-2016, 09:12 PM

The 276 Pedersen used a toggle. An aquaintance has one locally. Neat rifle. I found a box of ammo at a gunshow one day, bought it and gave it to him. I'd like to make some shooter ammo for it and give it a run of 20 or so rounds.

rolandtg · 11-01-2016, 11:05 PM

That's a beautiful rifle. Pity they didn't put more effort into it.

John Browning made a prototype toggle action shot gun

mrerick · 11-02-2016, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Maxim or was it Vickers that used the toggle?
dju

Maxim, Browning, Pederson, Vickers all had toggle lock based firearms. It wasn't a new idea, but wasn't particularly successful in handguns until Luger's refinements to the stubborn Mr. Borchardt's design.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=10478

Apart from making the Luger much more compact, simpler and balanced than the C-93 Borchardt, Georg Luger's body of work occupied as much observation as innovation.

The upcoming publication of Mauser's personal archive documents has an interesting section on Luger and Mauser's relationships.

alanint · 11-02-2016, 11:00 AM

That must have been a bear to c*ck, especially with mittens on in cold weather!

sheepherder · 11-02-2016, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

That must have been a bear to c*ck, especially with mittens on in cold weather!

I'd be more concerned with a hot 7.92mm case smacking me in the forehead.

The extractor is still at the top of the breechblock. Even though the Luger ejector is on the side, my Lugers still eject straight up & back. I guess Georg was still working on that.

Edward Tinker · 11-02-2016, 02:18 PM

Thats a nice looking rifle. I'll take one please

Ed

Stucki · 11-02-2016, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

The horizontal action weapon was a SMG.

--Dwight

Adolf Furrer, engineer and director of the Waffenfabrik Bern 1921-1940, used the toggle system for a lot of different guns, from SMG to 34mm AAA. It seems that it was some kind of "one fits all"-system for him...

Alexander

Ron Wood · 11-02-2016, 03:13 PM

I always wanted a Furrer rifle, but being very rare, undoubtedly super expensive and full automatic makes that impossible.

Stucki · 11-02-2016, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I always wanted a Furrer rifle

So do I...

- less than 100 were produced and very few survived.

At least I have a MP 41/44, a Furrer construction as well. Not really a sucsessfull SMG, but a nice one...

Alexander

mrerick · 11-02-2016, 07:34 PM

Ah... Ron... at last... a gun designed for the Left Handed shooter!!!!!

Those of you right handed shooters firing this one would get some of the experience we Left Handers have when firing an AR... Brass flying across your nose bridge...

Marc

gunbugs · 11-02-2016, 10:11 PM

Heck, if you want brass to fly out the left side, just shoot a P-38. Never could figure out why they made them eject out the left....

mrerick · 11-02-2016, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunbugs

Heck, if you want brass to fly out the left side, just shoot a P-38. Never could figure out why they made them eject out the left....

Good taste?

One thing I like about shooting our Lugers is the vertical ejection...

Marc

11-01-2016, 02:17 PM	#1
DonS User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 31 Thanks: 3 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	1906 Luger System Rifle This may have been discussed before or is known to some of the members. Im sure that many of the members have never heard of it. The M1906 German Army Luger System test rifle in 7.92mm with a 5 shot internal magazine that is loaded with stripper clips. Less than 10 were produced but were not adopted due to feeding problems. Just 2 are known to survive. The lever on the receiver tang activates a take down that releases the trigger guard. I would like to credit Vern Bryant of GDC for the photos and description. Attached Thumbnails

11-01-2016, 05:01 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Very interesting. I've seen pics of the toggle system on a rifle, but that one flexed horizontally, on the right side. This prototype is somehow more satisfying... Feeding problems? Who'd have thought! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

11-01-2016, 05:29 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hey now... Maxim had the toggle mechanism working in a machine gun! We know that Mauser worked on several different approaches for a semi-automatic high power rifle for Germany. He never really succeeded. Some of the designs included toggle based mechanisms. Since Georg Luger didn't mind stealing other people's ideas (including filing a patent on Mauser's 3 lug bolt system in Luger's own name) Mauser and others didn't mind appropriating the basic systems approaches used by others. Many of the Mauser designs required greased cartridges, which the military found unacceptable. The problem was extraction, and they were not yet experimenting with fluted cartridge chambers to cope with the issue... __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-01-2016, 11:05 PM	#8
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 477 Thanks: 380 Thanked 258 Times in 113 Posts	That's a beautiful rifle. Pity they didn't put more effort into it. John Browning made a prototype toggle action shot gun Attached Thumbnails

11-02-2016, 03:13 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	I always wanted a Furrer rifle, but being very rare, undoubtedly super expensive and full automatic makes that impossible. Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-01-2016, 02:50 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Fascinating! 7.92 (8mm Mauser) seems like a lot of pressure against that toggle joint, but I'm sure that they thought of that at the time...

11-01-2016, 08:02 PM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Maxim or was it Vickers that used the toggle? dju

11-01-2016, 09:12 PM	#7
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 660 Thanks: 366 Thanked 1,179 Times in 395 Posts	The 276 Pedersen used a toggle. An aquaintance has one locally. Neat rifle. I found a box of ammo at a gunshow one day, bought it and gave it to him. I'd like to make some shooter ammo for it and give it a run of 20 or so rounds.

11-02-2016, 11:00 AM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	That must have been a bear to c*ck, especially with mittens on in cold weather!

11-02-2016, 02:18 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Thats a nice looking rifle. I'll take one please Ed

11-02-2016, 07:34 PM	#16
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Ah... Ron... at last... a gun designed for the Left Handed shooter!!!!! Those of you right handed shooters firing this one would get some of the experience we Left Handers have when firing an AR... Brass flying across your nose bridge... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-02-2016, 10:11 PM	#17
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 660 Thanks: 366 Thanked 1,179 Times in 395 Posts	Heck, if you want brass to fly out the left side, just shoot a P-38. Never could figure out why they made them eject out the left....