Dutch Lugers

edalpha · 06-19-2002, 10:45 AM

Is there someone out there that can explain the significance of a dutch luger to me? It has struck my interest because I am Dutch {De Vries is the name). Were these lugers made for the Dutch before or after WW1 or WW2 or what? Could you recommend a single book that would cover this particular subject. Thanks!

Ron Wood · 06-19-2002, 11:43 AM

Ed
What a coincidence! The very best reference on Dutch Lugers, "The Dutch Luger (Parabellum) A Complete History", was written by Bas J. Martens and Guus de Vries (possibly a distant cousin?!). It was published in 1994 and is a very comprehensive and interesting work. The Dutch were among the very first countries to test and adopt the Luger as a military sidearm. Their testing started with a prototype Luger in 1898, prior to the first full-time production of the Luger in 1900. The Luger was purchased by the Dutch East Indies Army as a standard sidearm in 1911 and is designated by the Dutch as the "M 11". The Dutch Lugers were produced primarily by DWM, but one infamous lot was assembled by the British firm of Vickers Ltd. That is an interesting story in itself. Dutch Lugers were also produced by Mauser and delivered as late as 1939. An additional 1000 pieces were to be delivered in 1940, but by this time Germany had invaded the Netherlands, so the 600 pieces completed of this final contract were diverted to the German military. The Dutch Luger has an interesting and colorful history. I would highly recommend that you obtain a copy of the book by Martens and de Vries, I think you will thoroughly enjoy it!

Edward Tinker · 06-19-2002, 12:04 PM

I too love the Dutch Lugers, have one, one day will have a nicer one.

Dutch Lugers were used in the homeland, but the vast majority were ordered and used in the East and less of them in the West Indies, many have interesting markings and unit designations. Some lugers were used in Holland itself and others captured and used by the Dutch.

The Dutch Luger also has good background info on other Lugers and models, and as Ron said, has wonderful pictures and descriptions. Well worth the money.

Ed Tinker

edalpha · 06-19-2002, 02:04 PM

Thanks guys, Now you really have struck my interest! I'm definately going to purchase that book and learn what to look for in a Dutch luger. I assume that they list the proper markings and all. Sounds like I might have better luck finding one of these jewels in the carribean. That's OK too, I like the carribean!
ED

edalpha · 06-19-2002, 10:52 PM

Tf, I was refering to the post made by Ed Tinker regarding Dutch Lugers being found in the East Indies and to a lesser degree the West Indies. There are six islands in the Caribbean West Indies that are part of the Netherland Antillies; Saba, St.Maarten, St. Eustatus, Curacao, Boniare, and until a short time ago, Aruba. These islands have been receiving support from the Netherlands for years. It seems to me that dutch lugers could have made there way into the hands of the antillian authorities having been distributed by the "homeland" government. I don't know for sure! Once again, I was responding to the info that I received on a previous post. What do you think?
ED

Pete Ebbink · 06-19-2002, 11:14 PM

Hello Ed,

Being a Dutch-Indonesian immigrant, I have developed an interest in Dutch lugers, as well. I am hunting for a "KOL" luger.

The 1928 contract for the East and West Indies were stamped with a KL encircled (thus KOL). Only the 1928 contract had this KOL stamp on the right side of the receiver. The authors of The Dutch Luger book surmise KOL stands for the Dutch word for "the Colonies" (which is spelled in Dutch with a K).

I think only 100 lugers or less ever made it to the West Indies, so they seem much more rare of the KOL's...

Below are some photos of a Dutch luger I have in my library from that 1928 KOL contract...

I am a bit concerned that the brass tag on this luger has all upper case letters. As I look at The Dutch Luger Book, most brass tags have upper and lower case characters for the abbreviated Dutch words...also, could not find a reference in the book for what "KT" means..."Mgd." stands for medical corps.

Would appreciate any opinions from others on the Forum who are Dutch experts...as to all upper case letter (if a problem) and what "KT" might mean...

Ron Wood · 06-20-2002, 01:54 AM

Pete,
This is a wild guess, but here goes anyway. The unit markings were made "in the field" so to speak. To quote Martens and de Vries, "Most units operated in great isolation, and local officers in charge of small arms had the opportunity to apply unit marks as they found necessary." Therefore, although most markings are fairly standardized with upper and lower case lettering, it is not hard to imagine a unit armorer having only upper case letters at his disposal. Now for the next leap of imagination. Consider the times and the difficulty in maintaining a set of "rules" with easy access at each and every field unit. Perhaps there were multiple ways to abbreviate different locations or the armorer was just not "educated" properly with respect to the "official" abbreviation for a location. Therefore, although the "correct" marking for the Medical unit at the Kutaraja Hospital would be "Mgd. Kr.", the scenario that I have outlined might result in "MGD.KT.". That is my $0.02 worth, and probably overpriced at that!

P.S. I wouldn't mind having a KOL myself!

John Sabato · 06-20-2002, 11:45 AM

Anyone know just how the brass engraving plates were attached to the Dutch Lugers... Were they silver-soldered on ? (that is my guess)

Edward Tinker · 06-20-2002, 12:36 PM

John I am not sure, my Dutch Luger never had one of them!

I have seen others (pictures) and they leave a little dot if gone, so I think you are correct.

Dutch LugerÃ¢??s are interesting because they were routinely (evidently from my reading the books) rebarreled and reworked by a gov't arsenal on the islands.

Ron Wood · 06-20-2002, 02:15 PM

The plates were soldered on, and I am not even sure it was silver solder. It might have been plain old lead/tin.

06-19-2002, 10:45 AM	#1
edalpha User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida, "The Treasure Coast" Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dutch Lugers Is there someone out there that can explain the significance of a dutch luger to me? It has struck my interest because I am Dutch {De Vries is the name). Were these lugers made for the Dutch before or after WW1 or WW2 or what? Could you recommend a single book that would cover this particular subject. Thanks!

06-19-2002, 11:43 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Ed What a coincidence! The very best reference on Dutch Lugers, "The Dutch Luger (Parabellum) A Complete History", was written by Bas J. Martens and Guus de Vries (possibly a distant cousin?!). It was published in 1994 and is a very comprehensive and interesting work. The Dutch were among the very first countries to test and adopt the Luger as a military sidearm. Their testing started with a prototype Luger in 1898, prior to the first full-time production of the Luger in 1900. The Luger was purchased by the Dutch East Indies Army as a standard sidearm in 1911 and is designated by the Dutch as the "M 11". The Dutch Lugers were produced primarily by DWM, but one infamous lot was assembled by the British firm of Vickers Ltd. That is an interesting story in itself. Dutch Lugers were also produced by Mauser and delivered as late as 1939. An additional 1000 pieces were to be delivered in 1940, but by this time Germany had invaded the Netherlands, so the 600 pieces completed of this final contract were diverted to the German military. The Dutch Luger has an interesting and colorful history. I would highly recommend that you obtain a copy of the book by Martens and de Vries, I think you will thoroughly enjoy it! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-19-2002, 12:04 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I too love the Dutch Lugers, have one, one day will have a nicer one. Dutch Lugers were used in the homeland, but the vast majority were ordered and used in the East and less of them in the West Indies, many have interesting markings and unit designations. Some lugers were used in Holland itself and others captured and used by the Dutch. The Dutch Luger also has good background info on other Lugers and models, and as Ron said, has wonderful pictures and descriptions. Well worth the money. Ed Tinker __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-20-2002, 01:54 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Pete, This is a wild guess, but here goes anyway. The unit markings were made "in the field" so to speak. To quote Martens and de Vries, "Most units operated in great isolation, and local officers in charge of small arms had the opportunity to apply unit marks as they found necessary." Therefore, although most markings are fairly standardized with upper and lower case lettering, it is not hard to imagine a unit armorer having only upper case letters at his disposal. Now for the next leap of imagination. Consider the times and the difficulty in maintaining a set of "rules" with easy access at each and every field unit. Perhaps there were multiple ways to abbreviate different locations or the armorer was just not "educated" properly with respect to the "official" abbreviation for a location. Therefore, although the "correct" marking for the Medical unit at the Kutaraja Hospital would be "Mgd. Kr.", the scenario that I have outlined might result in "MGD.KT.". That is my $0.02 worth, and probably overpriced at that! P.S. I wouldn't mind having a KOL myself! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-20-2002, 11:45 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Anyone know just how the brass engraving plates were attached to the Dutch Lugers... Were they silver-soldered on ? (that is my guess) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-19-2002, 02:04 PM	#4
edalpha User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida, "The Treasure Coast" Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys, Now you really have struck my interest! I'm definately going to purchase that book and learn what to look for in a Dutch luger. I assume that they list the proper markings and all. Sounds like I might have better luck finding one of these jewels in the carribean. That's OK too, I like the carribean! ED

06-19-2002, 10:52 PM	#5
edalpha User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida, "The Treasure Coast" Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tf, I was refering to the post made by Ed Tinker regarding Dutch Lugers being found in the East Indies and to a lesser degree the West Indies. There are six islands in the Caribbean West Indies that are part of the Netherland Antillies; Saba, St.Maarten, St. Eustatus, Curacao, Boniare, and until a short time ago, Aruba. These islands have been receiving support from the Netherlands for years. It seems to me that dutch lugers could have made there way into the hands of the antillian authorities having been distributed by the "homeland" government. I don't know for sure! Once again, I was responding to the info that I received on a previous post. What do you think? ED

06-19-2002, 11:14 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ed, Being a Dutch-Indonesian immigrant, I have developed an interest in Dutch lugers, as well. I am hunting for a "KOL" luger. The 1928 contract for the East and West Indies were stamped with a KL encircled (thus KOL). Only the 1928 contract had this KOL stamp on the right side of the receiver. The authors of The Dutch Luger book surmise KOL stands for the Dutch word for "the Colonies" (which is spelled in Dutch with a K). I think only 100 lugers or less ever made it to the West Indies, so they seem much more rare of the KOL's... Below are some photos of a Dutch luger I have in my library from that 1928 KOL contract... I am a bit concerned that the brass tag on this luger has all upper case letters. As I look at The Dutch Luger Book, most brass tags have upper and lower case characters for the abbreviated Dutch words...also, could not find a reference in the book for what "KT" means..."Mgd." stands for medical corps. Would appreciate any opinions from others on the Forum who are Dutch experts...as to all upper case letter (if a problem) and what "KT" might mean...

06-20-2002, 12:36 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	John I am not sure, my Dutch Luger never had one of them! I have seen others (pictures) and they leave a little dot if gone, so I think you are correct. Dutch LugerÃ¢??s are interesting because they were routinely (evidently from my reading the books) rebarreled and reworked by a gov't arsenal on the islands. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-20-2002, 02:15 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	The plates were soldered on, and I am not even sure it was silver solder. It might have been plain old lead/tin. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction