Stay Current With Your Curios And Relics

[cirelaw]

https://www.alloutdoor.com/?s=Curiou...mail_subscribe

[shadow]

I have multiple firearms that are on the curio and relic list.

What is the benefit of owning a firearm that is on that list?

[Stu]

Originally Posted by shadow

I have multiple firearms that are on the curio and relic list.

What is the benefit of owning a firearm that is on that list?

The benefit of a C&R is the ability to purchase C&R firearms directly from individuals. Some businesses may sell direct at less than retail.

[shadow]

Originally Posted by Stu

The benefit of a C&R is the ability to purchase C&R firearms directly from individuals. Some businesses may sell direct at less than retail.

Thanks, I just did some research based on your reply and didn’t realize that there was a C&R license that makes it less hassle to acquire these firearms. Only problem is that I live in NJ which does not have or recognize a C&R. No wonder I never heard of it.

[ithacaartist]

Any advantage varies by state. Not valid for transfers where I live...still need a Class 1 FFL, list or not. Discounts on ammo are possible, but that's about it.

[mrerick]

The C&R FFL is a Federal firearm license - not a state license.

it's possible for the state to put additional regulations on those of us that hold FFL licenses, but the state does not issue it.

Here's some discussion:

https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/in...ics-ffl-in-nj/

There are some advantages, even if NJ does their best to ignore the license.

[Bill_in_VA]

Here's the Reader’s Digest version….
- A C&R, or Type 03 FFL costs $30 and is good for three years.
- It allows the holder to directly receive C&R firearms from out of state.
- C&R firearms are any firearms that are either “on the list” or that are at least 50 years old from date of manufacture. Note that the 50 year age applies to the individual firearm and not the design. (E.g., My Remington Rand 1911A1 is older than 50 years but my Rock Island 1911A1 is not old enough, and thus not a C&R. Similarly, my West Hurley TSMG was made in 1986 so it is lessthan 50 years old. However, it is specifically included in “the list” and thus IS a C&R firearm.)
- Record keeping…a C&R FFL-holder is required to maintain a record of all C&R acquisitions and dispositions. I.e., a “bound book.” Note that you do not use an C&R FFL; you are either a licensee or you are not a licensee - no middle ground.Even if the transferring FFL requires you to fill out a Form 4473 on that Luger, just like any other peasant would, you still need to record if you hold a valid C&R FFL.
- A C&R FFL is not required to surrender their “bound book” if/when the license lapses.
- A C&R FFL is liable for an annual compliance inspection but unlike a dealer/Type 01 FFL it does not have to be unannounced, and can be held at the local ATF field office. Note the compliance inspections of C&R FFLs is exceedingly rare.
- A C&R FFL is specifically for collecting, and is not for dealing. If you repeatedly buy a bunch of M1 carbines, for example, and repeatedly sell them to your friends/co-workers/JoeBob-at-the-gun-show then you are dealing and not merely collecting, and thus need a Type 01 FFL.
- Some dealers and distributors will give a C&R holder dealer discounts. Brownells will, for example; Century Arms used to give C&R holders flat-rate dealer shipping (no idea if they still do; I haven’t messed with CAI in many years.)

Finally, while a C&R FFL is a “real” FFL, and is a federal license, some states refuse to recognize them, just as some dealers refuse to recognize them.
HTH

[Edward Tinker]

unless you are selling your collection, the requirements are not too bad, and you just pay once every 3 years.

My state (Washington) still allows you to use your C&R.

[cirelaw]

Yea Florida!

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

Here's the Reader’s Digest version….
- A C&R, or Type 03 FFL costs $30 and is good for three years.
- It allows the holder to directly receive C&R firearms from out of state.
- C&R firearms are any firearms that are either “on the list” or that are at least 50 years old from date of manufacture. Note that the 50 year age applies to the individual firearm and not the design. (E.g., My Remington Rand 1911A1 is older than 50 years but my Rock Island 1911A1 is not old enough, and thus not a C&R. Similarly, my West Hurley TSMG was made in 1986 so it is lessthan 50 years old. However, it is specifically included in “the list” and thus IS a C&R firearm.)
- Record keeping…a C&R FFL-holder is required to maintain a record of all C&R acquisitions and dispositions. I.e., a “bound book.” Note that you do not use an C&R FFL; you are either a licensee or you are not a licensee - no middle ground.Even if the transferring FFL requires you to fill out a Form 4473 on that Luger, just like any other peasant would, you still need to record if you hold a valid C&R FFL.
- A C&R FFL is not required to surrender their “bound book” if/when the license lapses.
- A C&R FFL is liable for an annual compliance inspection but unlike a dealer/Type 01 FFL it does not have to be unannounced, and can be held at the local ATF field office. Note the compliance inspections of C&R FFLs is exceedingly rare.
- A C&R FFL is specifically for collecting, and is not for dealing. If you repeatedly buy a bunch of M1 carbines, for example, and repeatedly sell them to your friends/co-workers/JoeBob-at-the-gun-show then you are dealing and not merely collecting, and thus need a Type 01 FFL.
- Some dealers and distributors will give a C&R holder dealer discounts. Brownells will, for example; Century Arms used to give C&R holders flat-rate dealer shipping (no idea if they still do; I haven’t messed with CAI in many years.)

Finally, while a C&R FFL is a “real” FFL, and is a federal license, some states refuse to recognize them, just as some dealers refuse to recognize them.
HTH

in addition to being on C+R list + 50+ years old to be eligible any firearm must be complete + unaltered condition to retain C+R eligible or accompanied by ATF determination letter -

[Bill_in_VA]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

in addition to being on C+R list + 50+ years old to be eligible any firearm must be complete + unaltered condition to retain C+R eligible or accompanied by ATF determination letter -

IIRC, that’s regarding importation. See ATF Ruling 85-10 which prohibits importation of C&R firearm frames/receivers.

“In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curios or relics. […] It is clear from the legislative history that Congress did not intend for frames or receivers alone of surplus military firearms, or any other surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration, to be importable under section 925(e). It is also clear that only those firearms classified by ATF as curios or relics were intended to be approved by ATF for importation.

Held, to be importable under 18 U.S.C. 925(e), surplus military firearms must be classified as curios or relics by ATF. Applications by licensed importers to import frames or receivers alone of surplus military curio or relic firearms will not be approved under section 925(e). Surplus military firearms will not be classified as curios or relics, and applications for permits to import such firearms approved, unless they are assembled in their original military configuration.”


https://www.atf.gov/file/55396/download

[cirelaw]

How come some lugers have import markings? 'Not mine'

[schutzen-jager]

very clearly states that firearm must be in complete condition to maintain C+R status - military imports are different matter - my name + email address are removed from this email copy -

833895 RE: C+R question -

You replied on Thu 4/1/2021 5:08 PM
You replied on Thu 4/1/2021 5:08 PM
FIPB Regulatory Email Inquiries <[email protected]>
Thu 4/1/2021 3:18 PM
Mr.XXXXXX

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email, in which you inquired about buying and selling firearms by a Type 03 Collector of Curios and Relics Federal Firearms License (FFL).

A person may obtain a collector’s license. However, this license applies only to transactions in curio or relic firearms. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

Please see this ATF FAQ (emphasis added):

What firearms are considered to be curio and relic firearms?

Curio and relic firearms are defined as firearms which are of special interest to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as a curio or relic, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(1) Firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(2) Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(3) Firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, or bizarre or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

### ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics. ###

Collectors wishing to obtain a determination whether a particular firearm qualifies for classification as curio or relic may submit a written request for a determination to ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch. ATF’s classifications of curios and relics firearms are published in ATF Publication 5300.11.

Please see all Collectors FAQs.

In addition, there may be State laws that pertain to this proposed activity. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General (www.naag.org) for information on any such requirements. You may also find information in ATF publication 5300.5, State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found here.


Regards,

L. Babbie | Firearms Enforcement Specialist
U.S. Department of Justice | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms Industry Programs Branch
99 New York Avenue NE, Mail Stop 6.N-518
Washington, DC 20226

[Bill_in_VA]

Let’s look at the laws and not ATF opinions and/or rulings.

18 USC CH44 §921 (a)(3)(B) defines a firearm as “ the frame or receiver of any such weapon …”
27 CFR 478.11 defines a Curio and Relic firearm as “ (a)Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date …”
QED, a firearm receiver is a firearm, and a +50 year old firearm is a C&R.

Nowhere in the United States Code nor the Code of Federal Regulations does it say anything about completeness or originality.

ATF Ruling 85-10 is an ATF determination regarding the importation of C&R firearms.

18 USC CH 44 §925(d)(3) prohibits the importation of military surplus firearms but was amended under Section 233 of the Trade and Tariff Act of 1984, 98 Stat. 2991 to allow for the importation of military surplus firearms IF they were C&R firearms. The ATF ruled/determined/interpreted things to allow only complete C&R surplus firearms because as they decided, not what the laws say - C&R receivers aren’t of “special interest to collectors.” Again, nowhere in federal law does it say anything about C&R firearms must be complete and in original condition.


An perfect example is the case of Mosin Nagant 91/30 rifles with pre-1899 receivers being approved for sale as antiques.

HTH

[schutzen-jager]

the ATF rulings + opinions are binding unless overthrown by decisions in federal courts - proven many times over past decades - individual determinations by reading + interrupting CFR by any individual is just conjecture unless proved valid by federal court or legislative directive - remember that ATF is a regulatory agency that can make or modify regulations with out public hearings + judicial approval in many cases -

[ Again, nowhere in federal law does it say anything about C&R firearms must be complete and in original condition .]
yes it does -

### ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics. ###
[ An perfect example is the case of Mosin Nagant 91/30 rifles with pre-1899 receivers being approved for sale as antiques. ]
most all pre 1898 firearms not classified as destructive devises arm antiques + not C+R in eyes of ATf -

if in doubt contact ATF for a written determination or have a lawyer do it for you anonymously -
*** this all must be true because someone published it on the internet *** has been a costly + dangerous statement

[Bill_in_VA]

I’ve stated the law, and clearly shown that the laws do not support ATF opinion. There’s no point in belaboring this against willful ignorance.

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

I’ve stated the law, and clearly shown that the laws do not support ATF opinion. There’s no point in belaboring this against willful ignorance.

what you stated is your own interpretation of certain ATF published CFR regulations + not complete texts of all CFR regulations + directives - - consult a lawyer for a written valid ATF letter of determination for the actual facts from the regulatory source -

[Mac Cat]

FYI - I applied for my own FFL 03 license (Collectors of Curio and Relics) in July. I just got it, It took 77 days from end to end.

BTW, I almost threw it away! The 5x7 enveloped looked like junk mail and the return address was FFLC in West Virginia.