Aluminum Bottom Mag Marking on Early "v" Suffix DWM Mags

[Yakman]

Hope I'm posting this in the proper section.

I have a question about aluminum bottom magazines used by DWM and Mauser prior to 1934.

References state DWM had two contracts to be filled at the time (1929/1930) their Luger inventory and means of production were turned over to Mauser. The two contracts were for the Dutch Navy and for AF Stoeger so marked "three-line" commercial pistols. Mauser filled these two contracts.

As far as magazine bottom marking is concerned, the Dutch pistol's markings would most likely have been stated in their contract, and being military, not germane to this post. I can't find any such reference for AF Stoeger's commercial contract for 125 Luger pistols, all in the "v" suffix range (ser# 400v-524v), except that the third line right side rail roll stamp content was specified. I know there are a few outliers to this range, but I don't know anything about them, so can't say anything about their magazine bottoms that would be useful. Also, I consider any "three-line" Stoeger Luger not in the "v" block as pre 1929/1930 and therefore suspect.

Did DWM use any aluminum bottoms on Commercials (not police) in the late 1920s prior to Luger production, parts, and completed pistols being sent to Mauser in 1929/1930? If so, were any of the aluminum bottoms usually marked Kal 7,65, serial numbered to the pistol, or left blank? I'm interested in very late "u" block and all early "v" block pistols, completed by DWM or assembled by Mauser from DWM parts prior to 1934. All would have DWM marked toggles. Completed pistols vertical Crown/N (C/N) proofed and pistol parts unproofed with toggles DWM marked.

If not DWM, is there any evidence Mauser might have marked Kal 7,65, serial number of pistol, or left blank on DWM aluminum magazine bottoms prior to 1934?

References show Mauser-made nickel-plated, wrapped steel-bodied magazines, with aluminum bottoms marked Kal 7,65. I believe these Mauser-made Magazines would be post 1934 and outside the scope of my question. Who actually produced the aluminum magazine bottoms is also outside the scope of my question.

Stoeger's contract of 125 Luger pistols was not delivered in one batch but over several deliveries of a few guns at a time. These pistols are seen with serial numbered, blank, and 7,65 marked aluminum bottoms. Stoeger did not accept all of the 125 pistols, some of which were sold by Mauser to the Palestine Electric Company. I wonder if the magazine bottom markings changed from batch to batch or remained the same throughout.

I would think if one, a collector, was going to spend a considerable sum on one of Stoeger's three-line pistols one would want some kind of an idea it had a proper magazine. Or any of the Mauser assembled early "v" suffix Lugers for that matter.

Thanks, Jack

[Edward Tinker]

Jack, I apologize, but I'm on meds, and unsure what you are asking.

I'll try to help

There are a number of 7.65 on aluminum bases, I just bought one off ebay a few months ago
Aluminum bases were first used in 1925 with Simson lugers and then in 1926 (?) there was a policy that they could use wood until they ran out, and units / depots were to use aluminum bases.
If that is not what you were looking for, perhaps someone else can help, or i can look later.

[Yakman]

Ed.

You're right. I was afraid I was being somewhat vague. It almost sounds like my subject was more about Stoeger three-line Lugers. Let me see if I can be a little clearer.

I have a Mauser Luger with a 120mm barrel in 7,65 caliber, assembled from the parts provided Mauser 1929/1930, serial number 23v, C/C/U proofed, and DWM on the toggle. It came to me with a plain wood bottom magazine. I do not believe that wood bottom mag to be proper for this gun. I believe it should have an aluminum bottom mag. I would like to get an idea if the mag would be numbered to the gun, be marked 7,65 only, or have a plain unmarked bottom.

So, my simplified question is: What magazine should 23v have and how, if any, should it be marked?

To be germane, my question pertains only to those Luger parts and completed pistols turned over to Mauser by DWM/BKIW in 1929/1930. The reason being these were all that were available to Mauser before 1934 and their first Luger production contract, the K Date. Before that my understanding is Mauser only assembled guns from parts made by DWM and distributed guns already assembled and proofed from DWM. The three-line Stoegers as completed pistols and 23v as one assembled from parts. It's my belief the Stoegers, serial number 400v-524v, and 23v were available for delivery in 1930. I mention Stoeger three-line commercials because they are a contract run of 125 pistols with aluminum bottom mags that I wish would provided some kind of trend as to what to expect as to markings since 23v and the Stoegers seem to have been turned out initially close together in 1930. I'm not so sure that holds up to scrutiny.

I believe the Stoegers were completed pistols due to their being proofed and serial numbered. We know that to be proofed the pistol, according to civil proof house requirements, had to be completely assembled and numbered. Given the number of commercial lugers seen with unnumbered wood bottom magazines over the years, the requirements for proofing did not include magazines. There's the rub, all of the three-line Stoegers are Eagle/N (e/N) proofed and have aluminum bottom mags. Were these mags included by DWM or did Mauser add them at a later date? Was DWM including aluminum bottom mags with any of their commercial Lugers, ever?

In respect to 23v. The parts are said to have been provided to Mauser by DWM in the white, unnumbered, unproofed, and toggles were marked DWM. Luger 23v has the toggle marked DWM, it is large Oberndorf double crown proofed (c/c/U), the rust bluing is subtly different shades on various parts which is noted on a number of early "v" block Mauser assembled Lugers. The point being, there is no doubt 23v is a Mauser assembled gun from DWM provided parts. However, none of that sheds light on the probable magazine.

Hallock & Kant (H&K) is not much help as it classifies 23v into a collector's variation, V-1, all of which are said to have DWM made aluminum bottom mags. Although not in the least definitive, I think it favors aluminum bottom more than wood. I have doubts Mauser put a wood bottom magazine on anything before 1946.

Thanks, Jack

[Edward Tinker]

Commercial magazines would be blank - I am sure there are some exceptions, but a commercial DWM / Mauser would be blank on the bottom unless it went into police or Army acceptance (not proof). Anything done by contract, I imagine it would depend on the contract, but all contracts as far as I know were for a military or police groups.
My thoughts are that any commercial would be unnumbered and not have 7.65mm on the base. Why would it be marked with the caliber, its not like most people have a 7.65mm and a 9mm as shooters back then (average shooter).
Remember what I said, after mid 1920's, aluminum mags were required for army and then police. I think they'd use anything remaining of the wood, but by the late 30's I'd think aluminum were the de facto part in stock.

[spangy]

Don't feel bad Ed ... I have the same problem ... my meds make my mind 'thick' at times

[DonVoigt]

I'd "guess" aluminum and no #; er- I agree with Ed .

[Yakman]

Don, I'll agree with you and Ed as plausible. However, with all due respect, without further explanation I can't see what led either of you to your like opinion.

Up to this time, 1930, there had only been one German manufacturer of Commercial Luger Pistols, DWM. There would, of course, have been no government dictate as to how Commercial magazines would be marked, only a company's internal policy. Commercial contracts excepted. Directives ordering the Reichswehr or Police to change from wood bottomed to aluminum bottomed magazines or using up wood bottoms before going to aluminum would not pertain to DWM because it had no government contracts. DWM could do as it wanted in that regard.

A contract DWM did have, however, is one with A. F. Stoeger for 125 Luger pistols (Ser# 400v-524v). The pistols probably came to Mauser in the white; they were Crown/N (c/n) proofed, serialized, and with at least one serialized, aluminum bottomed magazine. This is according to Hallock & Kant (H&K), page 650. Terms of their contract, other than how the third line was to be marked on the pistols, are not known.

Reading H&K, it is easy for one to conclude that most Mauser Commercials have serialized aluminum bottomed magazines, rarely are any left blank. (The only ones I see that are apparently purposely left blank are in the Mauser Swiss Model serial range 1872v-1919v, and an unexplained Swiss Model "s" suffix block.) That covers "v" to "y" suffix as well as what H&K calls "Late-War-Assemblies", those pistols assembled after 1942 for various reasons, as having serialized magazines. On-line sellers are another source when looking for Mauser Commercials with numbered mags to compare. All the Commercials I can find have numbered mags. My records over the past 60 years show me having at least 10 Banners, but none that one might call purely Commercial, that is, not police or military accepted, so mine are no help to me. Therefore, I'm asking the Forum for reasoned opinions.

Even Mauser's "06-34 Swiss Model", delivered in several batches over several years, came with wood bottom, plain aluminum bottom, and serialized aluminum bottom magazines, pretty much in that order. When have Swiss Lugers been seen with serialized mags, Commercial pistols at that, other than from Mauser? According to H&K, one has been reported as having an aluminum bottom marked 7,65m/m, along with several others having Kal 7,65 marked 120mm barrels. There is precedent, coming from Mauser, for serialized and for 7,65 marked aluminum magazines. I would doubt the one reported 7,65 mag bottom is unique. Of course, there is always the possibility that the mag is not original to the gun.


Given the strong probability that Mauser assembled 23v with an aluminum bottomed magazine rather than the one with wood bottom with which it came to me, I don't think it's a stretch to explore the probability that Mauser might have included a serialized aluminum bottomed magazine. As far as Mauser was concerned, they had precedent with at least the 125 A. F. Stoeger pistols.

I'm not arguing 23v was assembled with an aluminum bottomed magazine. I don't know what it originally came with, but I strongly suspect it was aluminum. I think it could easily have been numbered as there was precedent, and as serializing commercial magazine bottoms very soon became Mauser's practice.

All I'm wanting to do is put a proper magazine with this unusual early Mauser assembled Luger pistol.

As for my opinion for an aluminum bottom mag, I make reference to H&K, Table 19.03, page 279; Table 19.03, Exceptions, page 280.

Thanks, Jack