Commercial Luger Date

Fred Patterson · 01-26-2024, 12:30 PM

I *think* this is a k date code. Would someone help me put a date to this navy Luger? Thanks!

Edward Tinker · 01-26-2024, 02:38 PM

Need many pictures, since luger production started over every 10,000 guns.
Full top, full left, full right, full front.

Ed

Fred Patterson · 01-26-2024, 03:34 PM

Additional photos

Fred Patterson · 01-26-2024, 03:37 PM

Additional photo

Mac Cat · 01-26-2024, 03:50 PM

Very nice Navy Luger.
I'd say 1921-22.

Fred Patterson · 01-26-2024, 05:03 PM

Can you help me learn why 1920-1921? Do you read the alpha- as a “k” also? Are we looking first at the s/n to get possibilities and then seeing which ones were made in the k-block?

Doubs · 01-26-2024, 05:45 PM

The change from 5 digit commercial serial numbers to the 4 digit with suffix letter - the "alphabet" commercial Lugers - began before mid-1921 according to Gortz & Sturgess. Commercial 5 digit production had reached 92000 which translated to the i letter suffix and that's the first letter used in 1921 when the switch was made. Once 10,000 i was reached, the next letter was k as they never used j because the i & j in written German was interchangeable.

If, as G&S suggest, production of the alphabet commercial Lugers began with 1 i or 2000 i as some think they did to match the 92,000 5 digit models produced, it's likely that your suffix k Luger was made in late 1921 or early 1922. Lacking specific production records, it's impossible to pin point the date more accurately.

Fred Patterson · 01-26-2024, 06:29 PM

FASCINATING!!

I’ve looked in both Catalog Of Lugers, Lugers at Random, and The Navy Luger and can’t find anything that looks like a fit. What am I missing?

Doubs · 01-26-2024, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Patterson

FASCINATING!! I’ve looked in both Catalog Of Lugers, Lugers at Random, and The Navy Luger and can’t find anything that looks like a fit. What am I missing?

I'm not being flippant when I say that you're missing better reference material. There has been lots of research and new found information released since those books were authored. Not that they are bad; just that new data has been discovered. Also, in the 1920's there were many odd variations of the Luger produced. It's an interesting period in the history of the Luger and comprehensive information just isn't always available.

Fred Patterson · 01-26-2024, 09:38 PM

No problem here - I’m extremely difficult to offend. And the truth is the truth.

I am familiar with the Gortz & Sturgess volumes, but unless I can get them through interlibrary loan they are beyond my book budget.

Dwight Gruber · 01-27-2024, 12:57 PM

What caliber is this Luger pleas?

--Dwight

Fred Patterson · 01-27-2024, 08:50 PM

Really good question. It’s not marked, and I don’t know how to tell. Do you know?

Fred Patterson · 01-27-2024, 10:44 PM

Oops … I didn’t take note of who had asked the question. I ‘spect you do know. (grin)

Kiwi · 01-28-2024, 10:34 AM

Check FAQ's on this forum or search "pencil test" for caliber

Fred Patterson · 01-28-2024, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

What caliber is this Luger pleas?

--Dwight

Hmmm … Pencil Test says 9mm. I’ll find my caliper and report back with a measurement.

Mac Cat · 01-28-2024, 04:34 PM

You might want to buy a package of Snapcaps in 9mm (I don't think I have ever seen any in 7.65x21). It's a safe way to check the function.

Fred Patterson · 01-28-2024, 04:51 PM

My inside micrometer isn’t ideal for this, but the closest measurement I could get at the exit of the barrel was 8.865mm. Any error would have put me reading a bit low, so I’m comfortable saying it’s a 9mm.

Yakman · 01-29-2024, 08:53 PM

Fred,

Your only question is about the year of manufacture. From this can I assume you do not question its authenticity as a factory original configuration?

Jack

Fred Patterson · 01-30-2024, 07:27 AM

Jack, I don’t know enough to question it. Give me your thoughts.

Yakman · 01-30-2024, 01:22 PM

Fred,

Almost anything is possible with commercials made in the 1920s. My first question is why a 9m/m at a time when all new Lugers (DWM) were supposed to be 7.65? Although many Lugers were exported without barrels to have them installed (9m/m) in their destination countries, this gun, if original, and for this writing let's assume it is, has a barrel which is Berlin proofed, evidence it is original to the gun. According to the German proof law, to proof a pistol it has to be complete, assembled, and serial numbered. This Luger seems to meet that requirement. Although it being 9m/m as an alphabet Luger is unusual, it is not unique.

The next thing I'd look at is the Navy rear sight for originality. A few years ago, some aftermarket replicas were produced, and I believe sold by SARCO. Maybe they are still available, I don't know. Some where I've seen written how to tell them from originals, I don't remember where, maybe G&S. I would be surprised if you found the sight not to be original.

I had an alphabet Navy style commercial up until 3 or 4 years ago, "o" suffix range. Mine had an unnumbered Navy marked barrel and what I finally determined to be a repro rear sight. I sold it as a shooter. If I had the one you show I'd still own it.

Does the Luger you show belong to you? If it does, I'd suggest you keep it as the alphabet Navy style commercial it purports to be until someone convinces you otherwise. I don't see that its GERMANY import marked, so maybe it was produced for some domestic purpose.

Simpson Ltd has one similar for sale, also a "k" suffix, you might want to check it out. DWM 1920 NAVY COMMERCIAL - C26327

01-26-2024, 12:30 PM	#1
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	Commercial Luger Date I think this is a k date code. Would someone help me put a date to this navy Luger? Thanks! Attached Thumbnails

01-26-2024, 02:38 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Need many pictures, since luger production started over every 10,000 guns. Full top, full left, full right, full front. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-26-2024, 03:34 PM	#3
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	Additional photos Additional photos Attached Thumbnails

01-26-2024, 03:37 PM	#4
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	Additional photo Attached Thumbnails

01-26-2024, 03:50 PM	#5
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 733 Thanks: 2,100 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	Very nice Navy Luger. I'd say 1921-22.

01-26-2024, 05:03 PM	#6
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	Can you help me learn why 1920-1921? Do you read the alpha- as a “k” also? Are we looking first at the s/n to get possibilities and then seeing which ones were made in the k-block?

01-26-2024, 05:45 PM	#7
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	The change from 5 digit commercial serial numbers to the 4 digit with suffix letter - the "alphabet" commercial Lugers - began before mid-1921 according to Gortz & Sturgess. Commercial 5 digit production had reached 92000 which translated to the i letter suffix and that's the first letter used in 1921 when the switch was made. Once 10,000 i was reached, the next letter was k as they never used j because the i & j in written German was interchangeable. If, as G&S suggest, production of the alphabet commercial Lugers began with 1 i or 2000 i as some think they did to match the 92,000 5 digit models produced, it's likely that your suffix k Luger was made in late 1921 or early 1922. Lacking specific production records, it's impossible to pin point the date more accurately.

01-26-2024, 06:29 PM	#8
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	FASCINATING!! I’ve looked in both Catalog Of Lugers, Lugers at Random, and The Navy Luger and can’t find anything that looks like a fit. What am I missing?

01-26-2024, 09:38 PM	#10
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	No problem here - I’m extremely difficult to offend. And the truth is the truth. I am familiar with the Gortz & Sturgess volumes, but unless I can get them through interlibrary loan they are beyond my book budget.

01-27-2024, 12:57 PM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	What caliber is this Luger pleas? --Dwight

01-27-2024, 08:50 PM	#12
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	Really good question. It’s not marked, and I don’t know how to tell. Do you know?

01-27-2024, 10:44 PM	#13
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	Oops … I didn’t take note of who had asked the question. I ‘spect you do know. (grin)

01-28-2024, 10:34 AM	#14
Kiwi User Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Wrong side of the Delaware river Posts: 309 Thanks: 216 Thanked 436 Times in 173 Posts	Check FAQ's on this forum or search "pencil test" for caliber

01-28-2024, 04:34 PM	#16
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 733 Thanks: 2,100 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	You might want to buy a package of Snapcaps in 9mm (I don't think I have ever seen any in 7.65x21). It's a safe way to check the function.

01-28-2024, 04:51 PM	#17
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	My inside micrometer isn’t ideal for this, but the closest measurement I could get at the exit of the barrel was 8.865mm. Any error would have put me reading a bit low, so I’m comfortable saying it’s a 9mm.

01-29-2024, 08:53 PM	#18
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	Fred, Your only question is about the year of manufacture. From this can I assume you do not question its authenticity as a factory original configuration? Jack

01-30-2024, 07:27 AM	#19
Fred Patterson User Join Date: Sep 2023 Posts: 28 Thanks: 12 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	Jack, I don’t know enough to question it. Give me your thoughts.

01-30-2024, 01:22 PM	#20
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	Fred, Almost anything is possible with commercials made in the 1920s. My first question is why a 9m/m at a time when all new Lugers (DWM) were supposed to be 7.65? Although many Lugers were exported without barrels to have them installed (9m/m) in their destination countries, this gun, if original, and for this writing let's assume it is, has a barrel which is Berlin proofed, evidence it is original to the gun. According to the German proof law, to proof a pistol it has to be complete, assembled, and serial numbered. This Luger seems to meet that requirement. Although it being 9m/m as an alphabet Luger is unusual, it is not unique. The next thing I'd look at is the Navy rear sight for originality. A few years ago, some aftermarket replicas were produced, and I believe sold by SARCO. Maybe they are still available, I don't know. Some where I've seen written how to tell them from originals, I don't remember where, maybe G&S. I would be surprised if you found the sight not to be original. I had an alphabet Navy style commercial up until 3 or 4 years ago, "o" suffix range. Mine had an unnumbered Navy marked barrel and what I finally determined to be a repro rear sight. I sold it as a shooter. If I had the one you show I'd still own it. Does the Luger you show belong to you? If it does, I'd suggest you keep it as the alphabet Navy style commercial it purports to be until someone convinces you otherwise. I don't see that its GERMANY import marked, so maybe it was produced for some domestic purpose. Simpson Ltd has one similar for sale, also a "k" suffix, you might want to check it out. DWM 1920 NAVY COMMERCIAL - C26327