Simson 1933 rework?

[Hugh]

This is 9mm, no date, blank toggle, SN 4355e. The take down, safeties, trigger, bottom of the sideplate and left grip are numbered 55. No numbers on any other parts. The bore is pristine. It has been restored by Thor.

According to Costanzo, the proofs on the right receiver, WaA66=1933 Simson military proof, and DE H=1933 Simson Heres acceptance mark.

The SE 823 on the bottom of the bbl are "independent manufacturers code" for suppliers of bbls. The 8 is the month (August) and the 23 is the year.

The breech block has two DE6=Simson 1923-25 military parts proofs; the middle toggle has a Crown lazy N and the rear toggle has SE Jt3. I couldn't find this exact mark in Costanzo, but found a similar one that indicated a 1928 Army depot proof.

I believe this gun to be a 1933 Simson rework using a conglomeration of parts. Would appreciate any corrections or comments to help in identifying it.

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally posted by Hugh
This is 9mm, no date, blank toggle, SN 4355e. The take down, safeties, trigger, bottom of the sideplate and left grip are numbered 55. No numbers on any other parts. The bore is pristine. It has been restored by Thor.

According to Costanzo, the proofs on the right receiver, WaA66=1933 Simson military proof, and DE H=1933 Simson Heres acceptance mark.

The SE 823 on the bottom of the bbl are "independent manufacturers code" for suppliers of bbls. The 8 is the month (August) and the 23 is the year.

The breech block has two DE6=Simson 1923-25 military parts proofs; the middle toggle has a Crown lazy N and the rear toggle has SE Jt3. I couldn't find this exact mark in Costanzo, but found a similar one that indicated a 1928 Army depot proof.

I believe this gun to be a 1933 Simson rework using a conglomeration of parts. Would appreciate any corrections or comments to help in identifying it.

Hugh,

You have brought us here an example of the places in Costanzo where current research and understanding have displaced his speculation.

The WaA 66 is an acceptance mark of the Heers Waffenamt. It starts showing up on 29DWM procured by German police organizations. The Eagle/H mark appears on several 29DWM in association with the e/WaA66; it is most likely the stamp of an individual inspector within the Waffenamt.

The e/823 on the barrel is most likely another WaA inspector mark, although it would be interesting to see closeups of the barrel markings. The date-code numbering system was only in use by the East Germans; their dates were surmounted by the Suhl crown power proof. Also, a 1923 barrel manufacturing date for military or police use would almost certainly be from Simson, and would have been inspected by the e/6 inspector.

The E/6 breechblock stamps indicate acceptance by the WaA e/6 inspector at Simson, and depending on their position may be a power-proof as well.

The lazy c/N on the middle toggle is part of the commercial power-proof set, usually associated with 20DWM but occasionally found on this position on Alphabet Commercials. It is hard to tell because the picture is not a close-up, but it appears to me that the edge chamfering on the middle toggle is very shallow, suggesting the toggle stamp has been removed.

The e/Jt.3 on the rear breechblock is the stamp of a Heers Zeugamt (Army Weaons Depot), depot 3, at Ingolstadt. A stamp on such a large part would usually bear a stamp with the entire HZa designation, eg: e/HZaJt.18, for Depot 18 at Ingolstadt. The stamp usually certifies work done aby the depot, such as parts replacement. Without an additional parts manufacturing inspection stamp--such as an e/6--it is impossible to know the parts' origin.

The e serial number suffix indicates the gun is not commercial production; the Alphabet Commercial range begins in the i suffix range. Most of the gun is serial numbered in the military style; the trigger plate is numbered in the commercial, hidden style, suggesting a later force-match.

The parts marking pattern suggest that this gun was made up post-1929 for Weimar Army use (there is no sear safety). The presence of the WaA and HZa stamps suggest that it was not done by Simson; the e/6 breechblock in this circumstance is most likely a spare part. The center toggle may be, and the sideplate is most certainly, post-war replacemenht.

It is important to remember that, though these marks may be associated with a particular manufacturer, they were not stamped "by" Simson, or DWM, Mauser, Krieghoff, or any other manufacturer. They are stamps representing individual Army (or, in the case of commercial proofs, state) inspectors assigned to the particular contract manufacturer. These inspectors often inspected at several different manufacturer's: the e/6 inspector appears to have spent most of his career at Simson; e/33 was moved into Simson to augment inspection; the e/823 inspector is a real mystery, as his stamp is most often associated with P-35 Radom production 1939-1944.

--Dwight

[Hugh]

Dwight,
Thanks for the lesson! I have added the bbl proofs picture, I had it, just had overlooked that it wasn't there! Can't find any other marks on it.

So from your observations, we may have a Waffenhampt USA produced gun?

[Lugerdoc]

Hugh, I believe that the E/823 inspector's mark under the barrel is rather an E/623 indicating a WW2 era Steyr made barrel, that may have been installed by the Army Depot at the same time as the replacement rear toggle link. Lugerdoc

[Edward Tinker]

I think the eagle 623 was brought up on Jan's forum a year or two ago, it "looks" like an 823 but its really a 623...

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally posted by Hugh
So from your observations, we may have a Waffenhampt USA produced gun?

Hugh,

Hard to say. I surmise that this is mostly a legit piece, made up at an arms depot for Army service, with a couple of parts replaced after the war.

Any chance of seeing the breechblock e/6 marks?

--Dwight

[Hugh]

Dwight,
I have added a pic of the breech block marks.