Questions about Eagle/C E/C Magazine

[mrerick]

This blued Haenel Schmeisser E/C marked police magazine came with a Luger I bought today at an estate sale.

I"ve got a couple of questions. It is not numbered. There is no firearm serial number or "1" or "2" mark on it. The edges are level with the magazine body. The round knobs don't look flattened.

Does this base look like it was ground to scrub a sn?

Were the E/C police magazines issued without serial numbers applied?

Also, the magazine follower button is set quite a ways from the side of the magazine. This distance prevents it from engaging the hold open after the last round. Was this done intentionally? The button seems firmly installed in the follower. Do these screw in, or are they driven in?

Thanks... Pictures follow, Marc

[klaus 3338]

It is a Police replacement magazine. One can find every Typ of Luger magazines with the acceptance mark but without a weapon number- these are spare clips. Some examples...

[Lugerdoc]

Marc, I believe that your E/c marked mag bottom may have had the original number removed or the whole bottom may be a DDR made one. Had to determine for sure without physically seeing it. I also believe that some of the above mags shown may be fakes. TH

[lew1]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Marc, I believe that your E/c marked mag bottom may have had the original number removed or the whole bottom may be a DDR made one. Had to determine for sure without physically seeing it. I also believe that some of the above mags shown may be fakes. TH

Which ones ?

[klaus 3338]

I´m so happy to find here a real expert!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Do these follower screw in, or are they driven in?
GT can elucidate about particular magazines but it's my understanding both screwed in and peened in types exist.

[mrerick]

I looked up these commercial magazines in Sturgess (p.1308).

My E/C magazine has the convex mounting pin that was used with the Type 2 Haenel Schmeisser police magazines. The one that he has photographed has a very deep stamping, including the "2" magazine number.

Mine resembles Klaus' E/C except that the base is level with the body on the front and rear.

I have some 2/1001 East German DDR magazines for a shooter, and the metal on those looks different.

Marc

[G.T.]

Hi Mark, it looks good to me.. If you want to make sure, push the pin out and look at the inside relief of the cast aluminum bottom.. the E. German bottoms are symmetrical on each side, the WW2 period bottoms are different on each side, to fit the tube more accurately... but I think a correct wartime spare police mag? Follower button is staked in... It is correct in all respects as to manufacturing and dimension... best to you, til...lat'r....GT

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by lew1

Which ones ?

It appears to me that all of them have been worked on. File/sanding marks are visible on several, and all but maybe the first pic show that the circumferences of the knobs are no longer strictly round on the bottom, On a couple, a different color of exposed aluminum--newer and brighter looking--is obvious in the area one would expect if the numbers had been removed. One of the aluminum ones exhibits the kind of surface texture that develops when the material is wire brushed by a grinder mounted brush--sort of smeared and round-y bumps.

I would assert that they did not leave the factory this way, that numbers have been removed. Whether this was done by armorers at some time, or by someone else, I can't say. It may have been common practice for armorers to clean up used, previously numbered spares before returning them to stock. But it seems an impossibility to me that they were manufactured to look like this.

I am not a mag expert, and have observed few others than what I myself own. I base my observations on my experience with materials, tools, and processes. I have several early commercial examples in walnut, that accompanied the American Eagles I won. The wear on them in no way produces this appearance, and their knobs are still perfectly round in circumference.

One could check for out-of-round by comparing caliper measurements of the following pair of orientations: A left-to-right measurement which is larger than a top-to-bottom measurement would demonstrate that material has been removed from the bottom.

[G.T.]

Well, the best I can say is "Yes!"...& then again "No!"........ I'll try to explain... They usually left the factory with the highest standard of what I would call "quick quality" meaning doing a repetitive task by hand, to a point, where it appears as, or is indistinguishable from, a machine operation... Almost all, 99.9999% of the cast bottoms of Mauser or Haneal (Sp.??) had the center, front to back , parting line buffed off... I've seen a very, very few that were original, and still had the line or remnants there of??.. And, you can tell because if you look close, the bottom will exhibit a ghost shape of a bowtie across the bottom! and usually it will be smooth. It's pretty hard to remove the numbers and maintain the integrity of the bowtie mentioned.. It actually reverses the wide and narrow facets on the bottom... Now here is where this one does get a little sticky.. and that is the rough surface on the very center of the bottom radius.. It shows bubbles? Lots of them, and this if from buffing / sanding too deep and hitting pockets of gas bubbles created by the addition of the equivalent of a silicone type additives to aid the casting process... Same thing happens when you try to weld up the bottoms, it releases the die casting additives trapped in the metal and you have MORE bubbles.... Probably a bad casting to boot! The marks may also be some type of Impact rash, can't tell from here? But, back the other way, I think there is more of a strong case for the mag being original as the bowtie is present and strong... I think it's good!! But again, that's just me... I'll be quite now... til...lat'r....GT

[mrerick]

I am also not the expert that G.T. or Joop is, but have seen a number of original unmolested numbered military magazines that show the signs of finish grinding like G.T. described above. It has caused me to not automatically reject magazines that show some finish grinding as manipulated.

These came as un-matched magazines with a number of Lugers I've bought, so there would not have been any reason to manipulate them. This magazine came with a 1936 dated S/42 Mauser military accepted Luger that was in very high condition, so it is not period correct either.

I don't know the history of the magazine I started the post off with, which is why I asked the question, especially after seeing an unnumbered one sell at Legacy Collectibles recently.

I'm trying to visualize the "bowtie" that G.T. mentioned. Is this it:



Is it likely that the mold bubbles defect would have caused Haenel to sell this as a commercial police magazine instead of trying to get it military accepted?

[klaus 3338]

Marc, there are no commercial police magazine. If a part has a military or police acceptance mark it is military or police. Yours is a typical type 4 Police magazine.
The picture show all 4 police type mags. All have different bodys and acceptance. The blued 4. type has the zig zag spring.

[G.T.]

Hi Marc! Yup! You've got it! Super hard to remove numbers and maintain that (new descriptive term? ) bowtie shape, as I said, it usually creates just the opposite effect?... And as for marks, voids, bubbles, etc. they would have to be pretty bad for rejection of a static part such as a magazine bottom... especially in the time frame that was issued, and to the police as well?.... Just guessing on all of the above, but believe it makes sense.... best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

[mrerick]

Klaus and Gerald, many thanks!

Final question. The little loading button is set just far enough from the magazine body to not engage the hold open, but close enough to fit into the magazine well without any problem or binding.

Was this likely intentional for some specific police use requirement?

Are these screwed in to the follower or driven in? This one is quite tight.

[G.T.]

Normally, it sits a little closer to the mag shell, when installed correctly, they almost rub or touch the vertical center rib... The fit on yours may be like it is for one of three reasons.. first, the stem on the follower button is about .010" too long? Or. the follower has been squished a bit during manufacture or assembly... Or, the magazine shell is squished some, or a combination of all three??... Now, listen very carefully to this next statement.. The main reason NICE Luger mags are so rare, is because someone tried to remove the follower button, or replace the retaining pin! ........ Believe me on this one, if you don't have the tools, or the skill sets....DON'T TRY IT!!!!! That being said, the follower button is pressed into the follower and the rivet /pin end is upset flat or in some cases staked solid... I can repair your mag correctly with the correct original, or new hand made exact replacement parts for a small fee... Let me know if you want this done... Best to all, til....lat'r.....GT....