Any Opinions...???

Pete Ebbink · 12-03-2003, 07:50 PM

http://www.gmartin-auctions.com/premdec03/lot1363.html

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

SteveM · 12-03-2003, 08:16 PM

Pete,
Looks to me like the pistol has been fired evidenced by the tell-tale marks on rear of frame.
The grips also, at least to me, just don't look quite right. Maybe the checkering is just to coarse.

PANZERSOLDAT · 12-03-2003, 10:27 PM

I am just a novice collector, but the strawing looks almost too good for a pistol this age. If finish is original someone has stored it right for a century! I hope mine survive a 100 in this shape! OOPS! I have fired all of mine at least once...OK...maybe twice.

Imperial Arms · 12-04-2003, 12:59 AM

It's a tough call to make an accurate opinion of this Luger based on the images, but I see some 'pros and cons':

Pros: This M1900 Luger could be considered acceptable as a gift or presentation to a president without having a 'GL' hallmark. There was no specific serial range for early M1900 Lugers which have the owners initials above the chamber. In regards to the condition, it appears to be original based on the sharpness of the BUG proof marks under the barrel and the sharpness of the high edges on the sideplate. I do like the small amount of patina/discoloration on the straw of the takedown lever. I do not have any question on the quality of the grips which look fine to me.

Cons: The fire-blue on the grip screws are to good to believe and they could have been refinished separately. However, the fire-blue on the breechblock pin looks correct.

My father and I used to own a .22 caliber free pistol which used to be owned by President deAlvear, but it was stolen during a robbery in our home many years ago. My father found it in Argentina during an offical meeting in that country. It was a custom made pistol and had a single digit serial number. The information on the web site provided me with some useful information.

It will be interesting to discover what price this pistol will fetch in the auction.

Cheers,
Albert

Ron Wood · 12-04-2003, 02:28 AM

Looks like a good one to me. Anybody have 15 Grand they don't need?

John Sabato · 12-04-2003, 01:41 PM

Well I LIKE IT! Provenance or not...

It MAY have been fired... but maybe not. The marks on the rear of the frame may only indicate that the toggle has been manipulated by hand...

What a nice Luger!

Pete Ebbink · 12-08-2003, 11:45 PM

There appears to be a very small "DE" in the middle of the chamber engraving...

Any thoughts as to what this might mean...?

I think I picked up the photo jpeg when this gun was on display at Reno a year or so, ago...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 12-09-2003, 01:21 AM

Considering the overall excellent quality of the chamber monogram inlay, the "DE" is very crude and not centered on the horizontal bar of the "A". I would guess it is an amateur marking by a previous owner and not the signature of the engraver.

Imperial Arms · 12-09-2003, 02:38 AM

Any idea what this item fetched at the auction yesterday?

Albert

Lugerdoc · 12-09-2003, 12:41 PM

The engraved letters appear to be M A O Since I doubt that Mao se Tung had anything to do with a M1900 luger, my best WAG, would be a Spanish language name such as Manual Obergon de Arragon.

Ron Wood · 12-09-2003, 02:44 PM

I went back and looked at the Greg Martin auction listing an saw that the attribution of the presentation piece is to Marcelo Te deAlvear, former president of Argentina, and the monogram reads "MTdeA", although I am hard pressed to make a "T" out of the stylized representation of that letter. That would explain the "DE" on the crossbar of the "A" in the monogram (DE Alvear). But it does, in my opinion, look a bit crude in execution compared to the rest of the monogram, hence my observation in my previous post above.

Pete Ebbink · 12-09-2003, 02:54 PM

Hello Albert,

The auction results seem to be udpated to the G-M Auction web site only a few months after the event.

Unless the lucky buyer is a LF member and wants to divulge the info...earlier...

Regards,

Pete <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Lugerdoc · 12-10-2003, 11:12 AM

Ron, I agree that I don't see a "T" (rather an "O") so I doubt that the atributed Argentine presidente is correct. Th

Imperial Arms · 12-10-2003, 12:25 PM

I agree that I do not see a 'T' either, therefore, unlikely the Argentine President. In my opinion, if the name included a 'de', it would probably be left out and only the main initials used 'MTA' on the chamber engraving. Furthermore, the 'de' looks very crude and not the workmanship of a German engraver at DWM.

When tiny details start to surface which look suspicious, I wonder who was confident to buy this Luger? If the engraved letters used a gold/silver/gold pattern, I have never seen this type of combination on presentation chamber markings which are usually all gold.

Albert

Ron Wood · 12-10-2003, 02:25 PM

I suspect that this Luger has good provenance and is probably documented. The inlayed monogram is actually made of various colors of gold that is achieved by alloying the gold with various amounts of silver and copper. The silver colored Ã¢??AÃ¢?Â might actually be platinum. The Ã¢??MÃ¢?Â is yellow gold, the highly stylized Ã¢??TÃ¢?Â (which really more resembles an M rather than a T) is white gold slightly tinted yellow, and the Ã¢??OÃ¢?Â is really a cartouche to Ã¢??fancy upÃ¢?Â the monogram and is in red gold which has a slightly higher percentage of copper. These differences in coloration are more easily seen in the auction pictures than in PeteÃ¢??s enlarged picture. This combination of colored gold in firearm inlays is rare but not unprecedented.

The Ã¢??DEÃ¢?Â in the crossbar of the A is also more defined in the auction picture, so I think that it may have been distorted and caused look cruder because of the rotation and enlargement of the auction picture.

It could be a fake, but I believe it is genuine.

Pete Ebbink · 12-10-2003, 04:04 PM

Here is the photo of the chamber from the G-M Auction web site :

The previous photo I posted was a different photo and not just an enhanced photo of the G-M Auction house photo...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Imperial Arms · 12-10-2003, 08:43 PM

I could have not described it better than Ron, and for this reason, I allowed him do all the explaining on the different tones of gold!

After considering the various comments mentioned above, it can be observed that there is a 'M' and an 'A', but the oval shape is likely a cartouche figure, and not a letter 'O', as explained by Ron. Therefore, the lettering is apparently 'MA' with the small 'de' in the center with an oval cartouche in the background.

To the best of my knowledge, the correct way to spell the president's name is 'Marcelo deAlvear' (not de Alvear) and, therefore, the initials should have probably been engraved as 'MD' at DWM. On the other hand, to create an attractive chamber engraving, the engraver at DWM probably believed that interwining the letters 'M' and 'A' was better than using 'M' and 'D'. It is known that many Spanish names have a 'de' which is important for the complete name and, therefore, it was necessary to include the 'de' somewhere in the engraving.

I notice that the rear of the extractor (near the pin) has some darker discoloration, and I wonder if this can be acceptable for DWM standards, especially on a M1900 Luger? I wonder if the extractor could have been restrawed since the grip screws are also suspicious in the fire-blue?

Albert

John Sabato · 12-11-2003, 10:54 AM

Albert,

I believe that the darker color at the rear of the extractor may be due to lighting conditions at the time the photograph was taken. This area appears to be to the left of the light source and would be somewhat in a shadow from the hump on the breechblock.

While it is certainly possible that the extractor and grips screws have been refinished, I don't see how it would be possible to determine that for sure.

Is there some test that could tell us if this has happened? I know that Tom Armstrong does some oxidation testing to determine the authenticity of the finish on Navy Lugers, but I have never heard of this type of testing being done on strawed parts or fireblued parts...

just my

Pete Ebbink · 12-13-2003, 02:37 PM

The G-M Auctin folks got their auction pricing results posted up on their web site in record time (thanks, Doc Fisher for the tip...) :

http://www.gmartin-auctions.com/dec03prices.html

This presentation luger (auction stock # 1363) apparently did not sell...as it is not listed in the sold results...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-03-2003, 07:50 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Any Opinions...??? http://www.gmartin-auctions.com/premdec03/lot1363.html Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-04-2003, 02:28 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Looks like a good one to me. Anybody have 15 Grand they don't need? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-04-2003, 01:41 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Well I LIKE IT! Provenance or not... It MAY have been fired... but maybe not. The marks on the rear of the frame may only indicate that the toggle has been manipulated by hand... What a nice Luger! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-09-2003, 01:21 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Considering the overall excellent quality of the chamber monogram inlay, the "DE" is very crude and not centered on the horizontal bar of the "A". I would guess it is an amateur marking by a previous owner and not the signature of the engraver. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-09-2003, 12:41 PM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The engraved letters appear to be M A O Since I doubt that Mao se Tung had anything to do with a M1900 luger, my best WAG, would be a Spanish language name such as Manual Obergon de Arragon. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

12-03-2003, 08:16 PM	#2
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Pete, Looks to me like the pistol has been fired evidenced by the tell-tale marks on rear of frame. The grips also, at least to me, just don't look quite right. Maybe the checkering is just to coarse.

12-03-2003, 10:27 PM	#3
PANZERSOLDAT User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: CLARKSVILLE, TN Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am just a novice collector, but the strawing looks almost too good for a pistol this age. If finish is original someone has stored it right for a century! I hope mine survive a 100 in this shape! OOPS! I have fired all of mine at least once...OK...maybe twice.

12-04-2003, 12:59 AM	#4
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	It's a tough call to make an accurate opinion of this Luger based on the images, but I see some 'pros and cons': Pros: This M1900 Luger could be considered acceptable as a gift or presentation to a president without having a 'GL' hallmark. There was no specific serial range for early M1900 Lugers which have the owners initials above the chamber. In regards to the condition, it appears to be original based on the sharpness of the BUG proof marks under the barrel and the sharpness of the high edges on the sideplate. I do like the small amount of patina/discoloration on the straw of the takedown lever. I do not have any question on the quality of the grips which look fine to me. Cons: The fire-blue on the grip screws are to good to believe and they could have been refinished separately. However, the fire-blue on the breechblock pin looks correct. My father and I used to own a .22 caliber free pistol which used to be owned by President deAlvear, but it was stolen during a robbery in our home many years ago. My father found it in Argentina during an offical meeting in that country. It was a custom made pistol and had a single digit serial number. The information on the web site provided me with some useful information. It will be interesting to discover what price this pistol will fetch in the auction. Cheers, Albert

12-08-2003, 11:45 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	There appears to be a very small "DE" in the middle of the chamber engraving... Any thoughts as to what this might mean...? I think I picked up the photo jpeg when this gun was on display at Reno a year or so, ago... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-09-2003, 02:38 AM	#9
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Any idea what this item fetched at the auction yesterday? Albert

12-09-2003, 02:44 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	I went back and looked at the Greg Martin auction listing an saw that the attribution of the presentation piece is to Marcelo Te deAlvear, former president of Argentina, and the monogram reads "MTdeA", although I am hard pressed to make a "T" out of the stylized representation of that letter. That would explain the "DE" on the crossbar of the "A" in the monogram (DE Alvear). But it does, in my opinion, look a bit crude in execution compared to the rest of the monogram, hence my observation in my previous post above. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-09-2003, 02:54 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Albert, The auction results seem to be udpated to the G-M Auction web site only a few months after the event. Unless the lucky buyer is a LF member and wants to divulge the info...earlier... Regards, Pete <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-10-2003, 11:12 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Ron, I agree that I don't see a "T" (rather an "O") so I doubt that the atributed Argentine presidente is correct. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

12-10-2003, 12:25 PM	#14
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I agree that I do not see a 'T' either, therefore, unlikely the Argentine President. In my opinion, if the name included a 'de', it would probably be left out and only the main initials used 'MTA' on the chamber engraving. Furthermore, the 'de' looks very crude and not the workmanship of a German engraver at DWM. When tiny details start to surface which look suspicious, I wonder who was confident to buy this Luger? If the engraved letters used a gold/silver/gold pattern, I have never seen this type of combination on presentation chamber markings which are usually all gold. Albert

12-10-2003, 02:25 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	I suspect that this Luger has good provenance and is probably documented. The inlayed monogram is actually made of various colors of gold that is achieved by alloying the gold with various amounts of silver and copper. The silver colored Ã¢??AÃ¢?Â might actually be platinum. The Ã¢??MÃ¢?Â is yellow gold, the highly stylized Ã¢??TÃ¢?Â (which really more resembles an M rather than a T) is white gold slightly tinted yellow, and the Ã¢??OÃ¢?Â is really a cartouche to Ã¢??fancy upÃ¢?Â the monogram and is in red gold which has a slightly higher percentage of copper. These differences in coloration are more easily seen in the auction pictures than in PeteÃ¢??s enlarged picture. This combination of colored gold in firearm inlays is rare but not unprecedented. The Ã¢??DEÃ¢?Â in the crossbar of the A is also more defined in the auction picture, so I think that it may have been distorted and caused look cruder because of the rotation and enlargement of the auction picture. It could be a fake, but I believe it is genuine. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-10-2003, 04:04 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is the photo of the chamber from the G-M Auction web site : The previous photo I posted was a different photo and not just an enhanced photo of the G-M Auction house photo... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

12-10-2003, 08:43 PM	#17
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I could have not described it better than Ron, and for this reason, I allowed him do all the explaining on the different tones of gold! After considering the various comments mentioned above, it can be observed that there is a 'M' and an 'A', but the oval shape is likely a cartouche figure, and not a letter 'O', as explained by Ron. Therefore, the lettering is apparently 'MA' with the small 'de' in the center with an oval cartouche in the background. To the best of my knowledge, the correct way to spell the president's name is 'Marcelo deAlvear' (not de Alvear) and, therefore, the initials should have probably been engraved as 'MD' at DWM. On the other hand, to create an attractive chamber engraving, the engraver at DWM probably believed that interwining the letters 'M' and 'A' was better than using 'M' and 'D'. It is known that many Spanish names have a 'de' which is important for the complete name and, therefore, it was necessary to include the 'de' somewhere in the engraving. I notice that the rear of the extractor (near the pin) has some darker discoloration, and I wonder if this can be acceptable for DWM standards, especially on a M1900 Luger? I wonder if the extractor could have been restrawed since the grip screws are also suspicious in the fire-blue? Albert

12-11-2003, 10:54 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Albert, I believe that the darker color at the rear of the extractor may be due to lighting conditions at the time the photograph was taken. This area appears to be to the left of the light source and would be somewhat in a shadow from the hump on the breechblock. While it is certainly possible that the extractor and grips screws have been refinished, I don't see how it would be possible to determine that for sure. Is there some test that could tell us if this has happened? I know that Tom Armstrong does some oxidation testing to determine the authenticity of the finish on Navy Lugers, but I have never heard of this type of testing being done on strawed parts or fireblued parts... just my __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-13-2003, 02:37 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	The G-M Auctin folks got their auction pricing results posted up on their web site in record time (thanks, Doc Fisher for the tip...) : http://www.gmartin-auctions.com/dec03prices.html This presentation luger (auction stock # 1363) apparently did not sell...as it is not listed in the sold results... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

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