FAKE K dates

Art · 06-14-2002, 04:20 PM

Recently a man in my area showed me a K date he had just purchased. After buying Still's book to research it---he suspected it was fake. Yep it is a fake and a poor one at that. It has E 63 proofs, Chamber is dished where original date removed, the K is wrong style(not footed), numbers rematched, even the mag release is numbered on right side. Rust blue is greyish color. This past week I observed another of the same fakes for sale at a show in this area. I put the two owners of the fakes together and they determined that they had both purchased them from same man. A man approached them at a gunshow with a Luger for sale. He had in hand a blue book with K date and prices marked and said he didn't want near the book prices for it. Both paid in the $700 range for the fakes. I am well acquainted with the first purchaser. He was fortunate that had obtained the name and town address of the seller for his records. Neither owner of the fakes seem to plan any recourse other than to pass the word. So I am assisting them via this message. I believe that I know the name and location of the seller of these fakes. Not a name that I am familier with in the world of Lugers. The sales occured in Illinois. Anyone else know of any of these fakes?

Herb · 06-14-2002, 04:36 PM

Not aware of any fakes but if you look in the BATF handbook of State Laws and Published Ordinances-Firearms it is illegal to obliterate, remove, add, change etc, etc, any firearm marking. If you don't have this reference let me know the state of purchase and I will be happy to look up the laws of that state for you. You may yet have recourse.

John Sabato · 06-14-2002, 05:28 PM

Herb,

I may be wrong but I believe that the prohibition on the removal or changing of firearms stamps is limited to the manufacturers mark and the serial number... The changing of a date stamp may not be in and of itself illegal, but to do so to mispresent an item for sale in order to portray it as something it is not IS ILLEGAL in all states and that is called FRAUD. I would say that they may indeed have some legal recourse to their transaction if they can prove that the seller either changed the stamps himself, or had it done...

My $0.02

AGE · 06-15-2002, 01:33 AM

Yes, but any relief is limited to the damage. With shooters going for $500+, how much can the buyers prove they were overcharged? And how much trouble is it worth to chase and persecute the seller?

Kyrie · 06-15-2002, 03:13 PM

Hi Al,

Fraud is a criminal offense, with fines and jail time for the convicted. The victims of fraud are not limited to civil remedies and can pursue criminal charges.

Warmest regards,

Kyrie

Jimbo · 06-15-2002, 06:28 PM

Hi Kyrie,

Last I heard, the government doesn't have time or resources to pursue cases of Fraud for values less than $100,000. Maybe small claims court...

Kyrie · 06-15-2002, 11:40 PM

Hi Jimbo!

That may well be true of the Federal courts, but State courts will prosecute cases that involve $100 - or less. And if any part of the transaction was done via the U.S. Mail, the USPS is very good about going forward with mail fraud cases regardless of the amount.

Warm regards,

Kyrie

Jimbo · 06-16-2002, 03:37 PM

Kyrie,

Good! Anyone who cheats deserves the full weight of what's coming to him. Wrong is wrong and the liars and cheats should be punished.

Pete Ebbink · 06-17-2002, 11:50 PM

Welcome to the new Forum, Art...

Glad to see your first posting...

<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

06-14-2002, 04:20 PM	#1
Art User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: missouri Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	FAKE K dates Recently a man in my area showed me a K date he had just purchased. After buying Still's book to research it---he suspected it was fake. Yep it is a fake and a poor one at that. It has E 63 proofs, Chamber is dished where original date removed, the K is wrong style(not footed), numbers rematched, even the mag release is numbered on right side. Rust blue is greyish color. This past week I observed another of the same fakes for sale at a show in this area. I put the two owners of the fakes together and they determined that they had both purchased them from same man. A man approached them at a gunshow with a Luger for sale. He had in hand a blue book with K date and prices marked and said he didn't want near the book prices for it. Both paid in the $700 range for the fakes. I am well acquainted with the first purchaser. He was fortunate that had obtained the name and town address of the seller for his records. Neither owner of the fakes seem to plan any recourse other than to pass the word. So I am assisting them via this message. I believe that I know the name and location of the seller of these fakes. Not a name that I am familier with in the world of Lugers. The sales occured in Illinois. Anyone else know of any of these fakes?

06-14-2002, 04:36 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Not aware of any fakes but if you look in the BATF handbook of State Laws and Published Ordinances-Firearms it is illegal to obliterate, remove, add, change etc, etc, any firearm marking. If you don't have this reference let me know the state of purchase and I will be happy to look up the laws of that state for you. You may yet have recourse. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-14-2002, 05:28 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Herb, I may be wrong but I believe that the prohibition on the removal or changing of firearms stamps is limited to the manufacturers mark and the serial number... The changing of a date stamp may not be in and of itself illegal, but to do so to mispresent an item for sale in order to portray it as something it is not IS ILLEGAL in all states and that is called FRAUD. I would say that they may indeed have some legal recourse to their transaction if they can prove that the seller either changed the stamps himself, or had it done... My $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-15-2002, 01:33 AM	#4
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, but any relief is limited to the damage. With shooters going for $500+, how much can the buyers prove they were overcharged? And how much trouble is it worth to chase and persecute the seller? __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

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06-15-2002, 03:13 PM	#5
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Hi Al, Fraud is a criminal offense, with fines and jail time for the convicted. The victims of fraud are not limited to civil remedies and can pursue criminal charges. Warmest regards, Kyrie

06-15-2002, 06:28 PM	#6
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Kyrie, Last I heard, the government doesn't have time or resources to pursue cases of Fraud for values less than $100,000. Maybe small claims court...

06-15-2002, 11:40 PM	#7
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Hi Jimbo! That may well be true of the Federal courts, but State courts will prosecute cases that involve $100 - or less. And if any part of the transaction was done via the U.S. Mail, the USPS is very good about going forward with mail fraud cases regardless of the amount. Warm regards, Kyrie

06-16-2002, 03:37 PM	#8
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kyrie, Good! Anyone who cheats deserves the full weight of what's coming to him. Wrong is wrong and the liars and cheats should be punished.

06-17-2002, 11:50 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Welcome to the new Forum, Art... Glad to see your first posting... <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />