Commercial .30 --what can you tell me about it?

[phoneman517191]

DWM on top of toggle. 8848 on front of frame below barrel. And below this--looks like an arrow pointing to this number of 8848.The bottom of the barrel in front of the receiver also has 8848 and above that --a crown with a N below the crown.And a character that looks like an arrow below the 8848. And a 48 on rear of toggle below rear sight. A faint N on left frame in front of side cover above trigger. Gesichert behind safety lever. The trigger has a 48 on it when the side plate has been removed. The back of the side plate has a 2 on it. There are no numbers on the other parts--not like a military issue. Wood bottom magazine . Stock lug on the rear of the grip frame. Looks to have been reblued--the rear of the frame is a brown tint around the safety lever. Circular machine marks on frame near the rear pin of the toggle.Ad light machine marks around the disassembly lever and above the trigger on the right side of frame.

Is this a Commercial 1920 or 1923? Sorry about the pictures--not as clear as I hoped.

[gunnertwo]

From your description it's a 20's era commercial. Better pics are needed to help with info.

G2

[Doubs]

The "arrow" could be a suffix letter which would make it a commercial alphabet Luger from the 1920's. A picture of the "arrow" would help greatly.

[phoneman517191]

Can it generally be said that a four digit serial number would mean that this Lugar is a 1920 Commercial? I also noticed that the crown and N on the left side of the receiver is upright--and not on its side when the pistol is held. Aren't the crown on its side on 1923 Commercials? I noticed that the extractor has geladen written on the side of it. What is a good source of printed information on commercial Lugers--aside from this forum? Thanks for responding. I have heard that daylight provides the best lighting for photographing markings on a firearm. I will give it a try tomorrow.

[Mac Cat]

It does look like a post WW-1 commercial.
It may also have GERMANY stamped on it if it was intended for export to the US.
Looking forward to better pictures and yes, outdoors is best lighting short of a real studio setting.
The suffix letter below the full serial number on the front of the frame is very telling.

[mrerick]

Welcome to the forum. Be sure to download our FAQ PDF document for reference information. You'll learn a lot from it.

Take pictures outdoors in shaded sunlight without flash. Use a camera that can focus, and get the markings close up as well as the overall Luger.

You hold history in your hand...

[phoneman517191]

The character below the serial number seems to be a "r" in lower case. Both on the bottom of the barrel and the front of the receiver. And the barrel has the crown and N on it. The bottom side of the side plate has a 48 on it--I noticed. And a "2" on the inside of the side plate.

I have another question: DWM had a name change in 1922. It changed to BRIW. Does this mean that any Luger that has a DWM on the toggle--was made in 1922 or earlier? Or the toggle was made in 1922 or earlier?

[phoneman517191]

Some more pictures.

[spangy]

Originally Posted by phoneman517191

Attachment 83127 The character below the serial number seems to be a "r" in lower case.

It is in fact a lower case 'p' phoneman517191 and '48' is the last 2 digits of your guns serial number 8848 and should appear on other places both outside and inside your gun.


I can't remember what the '2' means on the inside of your trigger plate ... gettin old

"DWM underwent a number of name changes following World War I and the subsequent disarmament phase. DWM was no longer allowed to produce military equipment after World War I (although they continued on a smaller and somewhat secret scale) and the first name change was to BKIW (Berlin-Karlsruher Industriewerke or 'Berkawerke') in 1922. After the national-socialist takeover of power in Germany, the company added 'vormals Deutsche -Waffen und Munitionsfabriken' (former DWM) to the company name in 1933. In 1936 DWM reverted to its old name."


"Does this mean that any Luger that has a DWM on the toggle--was made in 1922 or earlier? Or the toggle was made in 1922 or earlier?" IMHO No, there are many knowledgeable members here that will be able to answer this question fully.

[Doubs]

Your Luger's suffix letter is a "p" and it was likely made - give or take - about 1926. Being a commercial alphabet Luger, the last two digits of the serial number is stamped on the underside of the side plate and also the locking bolt, aka the takedown lever. The "48" will also be on the back of the rear toggle, the trigger as you've noted and other hidden places.

While the company name changed to BKIW in 1922, the DWM monogram continued to be used on the front toggle as your Luger was made well after the company name change.

The alphabet commercials are very well made but also the most common model of the Luger encountered.

[spangy]

Thank you Doubs ... I'm getting lazy in my old age

48 should also appear on your safety lever as well.

[Stu]

Don't forget, when it comes to paperwork, the letter is part of the serial number.

[phoneman517191]

Thanks to all for the all of this information.

It is very difficult for the beginner to understand Luger markings and background. I am surprised that there are machine milling marks above the safety lever. I would have thought that the finish would have been of higher quality at this time of manufacture. And where on the safety lever should it be numbered?

The take down lever isn't numbered and doesn't have a straw finish--a disappointment. And I suspect the pistol has been reblued---some of the frame has a red tint to the blue and other parts--don't--the grip straps are without the red tint.

Thanks again. I found some 7.65mm luger ammo and will take it to the range. I have owned the Luger since 1985 and have never shot it.

[spangy]

Originally Posted by phoneman517191

And where on the safety lever should it be numbered?

The 2 digit # is found at the top of the safety lever ... but is not always there as some guns have generic parts.





The safety's blade should also be marked if the safety is marked.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by phoneman517191

I am surprised that there are machine milling marks above the safety lever. I would have thought that the finish would have been of higher quality at this time of manufacture.

Early DWM Lugers were often free of milling marks; finished beautifully. (Erfurt, a Royal military arsenal, never finished their Lugers as well as DWM, a private company) My father once owned a 1915 DWM Artillery model that he said had absolutely no milling marks anywhere. As the war dragged on, milling marks being polished out became less important as demand increased. After the war Germany was in dire straits for hard cash and while DWM made excellent Lugers, they weren't quite as well finished as pre-war guns.

[mrerick]

And have you downloaded our FAQ Document?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121

It's really worth much more than it's price (which is free)...

Don't forget that this DWM Alphabet Commercial should be numbered in the commercial, not military style...

[MFC]

The safety bar and thumb safety are almost never numbered on Alphabet commercials.

[rhuff]

I have a 1921 "i" series alphabet Luger, and neither are numbered on mine.

[GerColctor]

I have very limited knowledge concerning commercial, as my focus always has been on the military/police versions, so I am hoping that the members may be able to help me

Speaking to the alphabet Luger series, my friend has a commercial model with a 4 digit serial number 6947, but no suffix. Were the alphabet Lugers started without the suffix and when the production reached 9999 each time they advanced the letter starting with a?

All alphabet Lugers had the small parts numbered in the commercial fashion, yet this pistol's side plate and take down lever (straw) while correct, are done in the military style. No number on the safety lever.

Any idea as to when the alphabet Luger production stopped?

Thank you for your consideration.

Joe

[gunnertwo]

For an excellent treatment on Commercial Parabellums go to the front page of the Forum, then to the sum-forum on Commercial Parabellums and read the commentary here:

Commercial Database commentary v5

It will cause you to have a higher appreciation of commercial production.

G2