Is This Legal?

[cirelaw]

Can you shoot a navy luger with an artillery stock or the reverse?

[m1903a3]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Can you shoot a navy luger with an artillery stock or the reverse?

No! The ATF is clear that you can only use an LP.08 (Artillery) stock with an LP.08 and an P.04 (Navy) stock with a P.04. And neither stock can be used with a P.08.

[schutzen-jager]

you can but it would be illegal -
from ATF q+a

[ Only original Artillery and Navy Lugers are legal with a stock, and it MUST be the correct type of stock that came from the factory for the Arty, and the Navy (they are different stocks). No stock is legal on a short bbl. Luger unless you registered it as a SBR. or it is on the C+R list ]

[Dubar]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

No stock is legal on a short bbl. Luger unless you registered it as a SBR. ]

So then, is the real answer yes, it is legal (IF you buy/get approved for the SBR stamp)???

[schutzen-jager]

absolutely no - you have to get it approved + pay the fees before you buy it - buying it first is a federal felony - possession of both short barrel pistol + stock even not attached is a violation as discussed in other threads here -



see post # 14 from 11/14/30 20 about legalities of stocks which is a very accurate statement

he ATF bulletin discussion of not having possession of both the stock and handgun (attached or not) is based upon the legal issue called "constructive possession". For example if you posses a non NFA registered short barrel rifle and remove the barrel, you are still in violation of the law based upon constructive possession. You may have the rifle or the short barrel individually, but not both. If you intend to make a short barrel rifle by replacing the barrel with a short one, you must wait for the NFA paperwork to be approved before you obtain the short barrel. As for the gasoline and box of matches that would not be constructive possession, as together they do not create a controlled item. So constructive possession does apply to numerous combinations of handguns and stocks, unless they are specifically exempted. Hope this helps.

[cirelaw]

These Are Legal!

[cirelaw]

Wrong!!!! https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...arce-Parts-Gun

[Bill_in_VA]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Wrong!!!! https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...arce-Parts-Gun

Eric, aren’t/weren’t you a lawyer? If I was your client, would I have a better case than the ATF because I relied on an internet vendor’s photograph rather than a published ATF ruling?

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Wrong!!!! https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...arce-Parts-Gun

also parts guns are are not C+R eligible unless accompanied with a current ATF letter - C+R requires that they be in original manufactured condition -

[cirelaw]

I also studied personal injury and torts at Villanova Law School because I learned that it was easier to get Fifty Thousand Dollars form Allstate than five hundred from a client!!! PS There was no internet or data base available in 1981, just thousands of Heavy Law Books Books~The problem today there are thousands of regulations and keep growing every day!!! Something Legal at this moment maybe not the next without our input! That is why our inquiries are useful! Thanks To All That Express Their Opinions and Comments! In Our Luger Democracy, No One Is Wrong~ Eric

[cirelaw]

Check Out This Page Please~ https://www.gun-tests.com/viewpoints...lder-stocks-3/

[Heinz]

You need to get to section III of the C and R list, for C & R that are exempt from the National Firearms Act. The following are from that list. ( I am also a retired lawyer, so I read the fine print)

Luger, 1920 Commercial Artillery Model, pistols mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having undated
chambers, commercial proofmarks, and bearing the inscription “Germany” or “Made in Germany” on the receiver and accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery-type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.
Luger, Artillery Model, pistols having chamber dates of 1914 through 1918 or 1920, having German Weimar Navy markings consisting of the letter M over an anchor and a German Navy property number accompanied by original Artillery Luger flat board stocks, bearing German Weimar Navy markings of the letter M over an anchor with or without Navy property numbers.
Luger, DWM, original models 1904, 1906, 1908, 1914, and 1920, Naval pistols, cal.’s 9mm Parabellum or 7.65mm, in both the Commercial and Naval military varieties; in both altered and unaltered barrel lengths in the Model 1904 and in both altered and unaltered safety markings in the Model 1906; with original board-type detachable shoulder stocks bearing brass or iron discs, with or without markings, or, if without brass or iron discs, being of the Navy flat board-type. This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is mated to the Artillery stock. The Naval stock has an overall dimension of 12-3/4", a rear width of 4-5/8", a front width of 1-1/2", a rear thickness of 9/16", and a front thickness of l-3/16".
Luger, DWM Pistol, Model 1900, 1902, or 1906, cal.’s 7.65 Luger or 9mm Parabellum, having the American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either 4" or 4-3/4", with original detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal frame grips.
Luger, DWM pistol-carbine, Model 1920, cal.’s 7.65mm or 9mm, with accompanying original commercial type shoulder stock, with or without forearm piece, having barrel lengths of 11- 3/4" to less than 16".
Luger, DWM Stoeger, Model 1920 and 1923, semiautomatic pistols, cal.’s 7.65mm or 9mm Parabellum, in barrel lengths of 8, 10, 12, and 12-1/2", having either American Eagle chamber crests and/or Stoeger frame and/or upper receiver marks, having either standard, Navy or artillery rear sights, having extractors marked either "Loaded" or "Geladen" and having frame safety markings of either "Gesichert" or "Safe”, together w/original commercial flat board stocks of the artillery type, which bear no S/Ns or military proof marks, but may incorporate a "Germany" marking.
Luger, German Model 1914 Artillery model pistols, mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having chambers dated 1914-1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks & accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery-type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.
Luger, Model 1902, Pistol-Carbine, cal. 7.65mm Luger, with original commercial type shoulder stock and forearm and 11-3/4" barrel.
Luger, Persian (Iranian) Artillery model, pistols, as mfd. by Mauser prior to 1945, accompanied by the original artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stock, bearing a S/N in Farsi characters stamped into the wood on the left side.
Luger, semiautomatic pistol, certain variations with Benke-Thiemann folding shoulder stock.

[Heinz]

This was the 2018 version of the list posted online by ATF.

[Edward Tinker]

I disagree - I think you can OWN but not attach.
Unless you are youtubing and showing your collection - then it might get you into trouble?

Ed

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I disagree - I think you can OWN but not attach.
Unless you are youtubing and showing your collection - then it might get you into trouble?

Ed

mere ownership is all law enforcement is proof intent in the eyes of the judge + it would cost thousands to fight the ruling -
- about 6 years ago an RFC poster in Florida posted a video of him shooting a standard PO8 with art. stock soon was visited by ATF

re. from old post here -

he ATF bulletin discussion of not having possession of both the stock and handgun (attached or not) is based upon the legal issue called "constructive possession". For example if you posses a non NFA registered short barrel rifle and remove the barrel, you are still in violation of the law based upon constructive possession. You may have the rifle or the short barrel individually, but not both. If you intend to make a short barrel rifle by replacing the barrel with a short one, you must wait for the NFA paperwork to be approved before you obtain the short barrel. As for the gasoline and box of matches that would not be constructive possession, as together they do not create a controlled item. So constructive possession does apply to numerous combinations of handguns and stocks, unless they are specifically exempted. Hope this helps.

[Heinz]

The list I posted exempts those firearms from the National Firearms Act; You can attach the stock. There is no prohibition on owning stocks and not attaching them. You will note in the list I posted:
"Luger, DWM, original models 1904, 1906, 1908, 1914, and 1920, Naval pistols, cal.’s 9mm Parabellum or 7.65mm, in both the Commercial and Naval military varieties; in both altered and unaltered barrel lengths in the Model 1904 and in both altered and unaltered safety markings in the Model 1906; with original board-type detachable shoulder stocks bearing brass or iron discs, with or without markings, or, if without brass or iron discs, being of the Navy flat board-type. This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is mated to the Artillery stock. The Naval stock has an overall dimension of 12-3/4", a rear width of 4-5/8", a front width of 1-1/2", a rear thickness of 9/16", and a front thickness of l-3/16"." This section talks about "mating" the stock to the gun.

[sdmark777]

Well Ed and Heinz,
you are wrong on this one. It is not legal to own, but not attach a stock (Unless it is specifically exempted or registered as an SBR) Here is the proof. Remember way back when when many an artillery luger rig was butchered by either grinding off the stock lug or removing the attaching iron from the stock? Why did they do that? Because to comply with the Fed law you could not "constructively" possess both the artillery luger and stock. So to possess an artillery or navy rig legally they had to butcher the luger or the stock. (Unless of course it had been registered under the NFA) Then they gave artillery lugers and others an exemption as outlined by Heinz. Now if you want to pick at straws, think about this. Say you have a qualified original artillery luger and original artillery stock. You are OK because of the NFA exemption. Now you add a standard 4" luger, a BYF 42 for example, to your collection, which is not exempted under the NFA for a stock. As long as you don't mount the artillery stock on the BYF 42 you are probably OK, because you have the exempted artillery to go with the stock. But if you just have a BYF 42 and an artillery stock, (which of course will fit on the BYF 42) and no artillery luger yet, you could be found in constructive possession of an unregistered SBR even if you never attached the artillery stock to the BYF 42. Unless someone is focused on, due to some related or unrelated law enforcement investigation, or bring attention to themselves, ie online or offering for sale, these are probably mute points. My worry is that none of the new gun control laws and most of the past laws and decisions, allow for all the variables especially when dealing with older collectible firearms. The liberals and politicians are pushing hard now to restrict and remove our firearm rights as never before. The last thing they care about is if a valuable 100 plus year old collectible luger snail drum becomes contraband because it holds over 10 rounds of 9mm ammo. Or a 100 year old artillery luger becomes contraband because it has a stock. California for example, already did this to luger snail drums years ago when they enacted a high capacity magazine ban. First they grandfathered previous hi cap mags, but you could no longer buy, sell or transfer them. Then they flat out made them contraband unless you were law enforcement. (This is working through the Courts right now, but they still enacted it already). To sum up: yes there is a legal principal which applies called constructive possession, like Schutzen-Jager stated. The law is one thing and actual enforcement is another. Common sense and spirit of the law used to be the standard of law enforcement. ie, Jimmy sells drugs and knocks off liquor stores. Jimmy is found with a stolen BYF 42 Luger with an Artillery stock. Jimmy is getting charged with possession of an unregistered SBR. John Q citizen has a loud argument with his wife. His BYF 42 and an artillery stock are on the table when police check the welfare. No crimes, just loud words, Officer compliments John Q on his fine Luger and leaves. Well brothers, those days I am sad to say are probably gone. Trust me, the gun control laws coming down if enacted will affect your collectible shotguns, Colts, S & W's and Lugers. They are not just going to affect those evil AR 15's. Oh, they will grandfather the existing guns right? Wrong, that is only step one. Like in California, first they grandfathered existing hi cap mags, then a few years later banned them outright, grandfathered or not. They are pushing more gun laws and taking away enforcement discretion. Oh they know their anti gun laws violate the 2nd amendment. But they don't care, they know it takes years to repeal these laws at great expense and little likely hood their repeal will ever succeed. Consider this horse beaten, good day to all.

[Heinz]

You will note section III of the ATF Curio and relics table list those firearms as "Exempt from the National Firearms Act"

"Constructive possession" is a very tenuous legal theory' but you harass the ATF at your own risk. If you have a navy pistol, you can have a navy stock, if you have one of those strange Pacific Arms carbines with a detachable stock you have to decide if you can show it is the original stock.

If you have a Mauser P08 and want to have an artillery stock just for fun, you are on very thin ice. You might also note that the Mauser 1970's production Luger carbine is not exempted in section III but specifically noted as requiring a permit in section V.

If you want to expound on the law, cite cases that actually happened. There were two arrest cases in Florida in the past, a person selling an HK SP59 with a handguard and shoulder stock. Clearly NOT and exempted weapon and a person you-tubing himself shooting a Mauser S42 with an artillery stock, also not exempt. I am not sure of the final disposition of either case but BOTH were clearly not under the exemption.

[cirelaw]

Thank You All!! Check Out Pages 26 of 91, Very Precise! https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/un...-2018/download Luger Section~

[Karl]

This is an informative post. I find it interesting that there seems to be no shortage of reproduction artillery stocks. I would even guess that there are more repro arty stocks out there than artillery lugers. The stocks are sold without any disclaimer, such as "Warning: attaching this stock to a standard Luger is a federal crime." Presumably, a lot of people are using these repro stocks illegally and publicly, at clubs and ranges that typically include law enforcement members (like my club).

Stupid question: Suppose you own an arty stock and one of those pot-metal replica artillery lugers, as well as a standard Luger? Can you legitimately claim that the stock is for the replica arty?

KFS