Another great day at the auction

[spangy]

Today I acquired at auction another new family member.

LUGER , MODEL: P-08 M23 , CALIBER: 9MM LUGER

Whether or not it can be called a true M23 I will let you decide.

It's not a beauty queen but it has loads of personality ... at least to me.

I don't know that they are rare but they are an uncommon legitimate Luger variation. They are rarely numbers matching by their very nature and definitely re-worked throughout their existence.

Among the first soldiers to use the 9 mm Parabellum pistol were the Finnish "Jaegers" trained in Germany between 1915 - 18. When they came to fight in the War of Independence in the winter of 1918, they brought their small arms with them and this pistol model became widely known in Finland.

In 1922-23 the finnish Army decided to obtain a high quality service pistol for its first-line combat units, and their choice was the Parabellum.

The pistols were acquired from the DWM works in Germany, but due to the Versailles Peace Treaty conditions they were in caliber 7,65mm Para.

The Finnish model designation became 7,65 pist/23.(m/23).

Only at the time of the Winter War was a small batch of 56 P.08 pistols in 9mm caliber bought from Belgium. However, during the war years some m/23 pistols were converted to the 9 mm cartridge by fitting a new barrel and some other parts, recoil spring, etc., drilling the escape gap into the breech block and fluting the firing pin.

The new barrels were generally manufactured in Finland by the Tikkakoski works. After the war this conversion was accelerated as the 9 mm cartridge had become the general standard.

Unit mark on rear strap ... TK 6



TK company

6. Tiedotuskomppania (6.TtusK)
(6th Information Company)
Formed on 18.6.1941 and attached later to Group Oinonen (RO).
Suspended on 10.1.1942.

In wartime Finland, TK companies (the abbreviation TK comes from the Finnish word tiedotuskomppania, "information company") were units under the information division of the Finnish army founded before the Winter War, which were active during the Continuation War and the Lapland War. Soldiers working in the companies were called TK men (Finnish: TK-miehet), whose civilian professions usually were journalists, teachers or advertisers. Some of the men were notable authors, illustrators and radio reporters. They acted as war correspondents, war reporters, filmographers, photographers, illustrators,

In 1938 a group of propaganda men were sent to Berlin, Germany on a study trip. The members of the Propaganda Association were called to additional training in autumn 1939. The subject of the training was putting the men into appropriate activities. 60 propagandists were trained before the Winter War.

In early October 1939 a propaganda department of the military headquarters and a state information center were founded. - The TK men (Finnish: TK-miehet),

The information activity of the Winter War belonged to the propaganda department of the military headquarters. The activity in the Winter War was not as professional as it later became. The TK organization was founded during the Interim Peace from 1940 to 1941.

The idea for TK activity came from Germany, where the director of the information department of the military headquarters Kalle Lehmus became familiar with the propaganda activity and companies of the German army (Propagandakompanie in German). The word "propaganda" had a negative reputation in Finland, so the company used the term "information" instead.

The information companies worked under the supervision of the military headquarters in Mikkeli. The number of companies ranged from eight to twelve. The companies had 339 men at the start of the war and about 150 photographers served in active duty at the front line. The assigned number of men in one company was 40, which included four photographers, two filmographers and ten writers. In reality, companies often had fewer men.

TK images were pictures, drawings, paintings, photographs or films created by TK men or TK photographers. The image material from the Winter War was photographed by the front line soldiers on their own cameras, even though all published material is classified as TK images.


By TK-kuva - SA-kuva, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=74222500


By TK-kuva - SA-kuva, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/inde...curid=74222504

TK men were selected based on their professional skills and their political stance. There were also numerous social democratic reporters among them, but although Olavi Paavolainen tried to convince the chief of the 1st information company Martti Haavio that known leftist socialists artist Tapio Tapiovaara and author Jarno Pennanen should be enlisted as TK men, they were not selected.

In wartime TK men participated in producing propaganda material of the war and its official documentation. The view nowadays is that the TK men recorded a historically valuable inheritance to the progeny.

The SA image archive consists of images from the Winter War, the Continuation War and the Lapland War. There are about 160 thousand photographs from 1939 to 1945 in the archive. Most of them were taken by TK photographers.

TK photographers had to observe things that had military, military historical or ethnological value.

Military and military historical material had to present the Finnish soldier by showing traits and military activities common to him. Photographing disorderly behavior or pranks was forbidden. Photographing demoralizing subjects such as executions or the dead was strictly forbidden. However, it was expected of the photographers to photograph atrocities by the enemy and large enemy losses.

The most important mission of the TK men was news coverage. This meant focusing information about the war and eyewitness reports to the people at home. As well as propaganda, the photographers recorded military history, in particular ethnological subjects after the conquest of East Karelia.

The TK photographers filmed 88 documentary films about the attack and positional warfare phases of the Continuation War. The life of the civilian people at home was also photographed. News reports of the Defense Forces showed areas conquered during the advance to the east in 1941.

The battles to repeal the Soviet Union's great attack on the Karelian Isthmus and the evacuation of the Karelian people were photographed in June 1944. This was done by the photographers of the TK companies at the front line and the TK photographers of the Information Department of the State and of the military headquarters in the capital area.

The activity of TK photographers was strictly controlled, but front line soldiers could photograph freely. Censorship also affected magazine photographers, but not as greatly as it did TK photographers.

TK men moved on the front line according to instructions by the military headquarters, all the way from Lapland to the shores of Lake Onega (Ääninen). Texts were first sent to Lokki in the Mikkeli headquarters, where the stories were examined in the department Tiedotus 1st and then in the Information Department of the State before sending them to magazines.

During the Continuation war, TK men wrote about 8 thousand news reports. Over a thousand texts were left unpublished because of censorship. TK men wrote about battles and the free time of the soldiers. The people at home were attempted to be protected from the reality of the war, and censored texts were too horrible to be read by them. Censorship also slowed news down. For example news about the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk offensive were only published after one week.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TK_company


















notice the unique semi-circular rear sight as opposed to the typical 'V' notch

I will receive the gun in about 2 weeks and will take more pictures of the gun inside and out if you guys are interested.

[jeb111]

Very interesting Luger, love the history that goes along with it. Just wondering about the front sight blade, looks different, is it original to that pistol?
Jim

[spangy]

Thanks jeb111 I absolutely love the history too.
I think it makes this gun so desirable and for me irresistible.
The barrel is a Tikkakoski barrel that came in 2 sizes I believe, 100 & 120 mm.
Tikkakoski barrels were routinely used to replace worn barrels.
The blade is a Tikkakoski trade mark and I quite like the look.
The barrels are said to be superior to the DWM barrels and are noted for increased accuracy.

They are found on most SA Parabellum 's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vTynFRdBlA

[Dwight Gruber]

A very informative report, and an interesting pistol. Thank you very much.


--Dwight

[gunnertwo]

Great post! You've done a great job of research. Nice gun, please add more pics when it arrives. Though I don't have one in my collection I'll add an image related to the topic.

G2

[spangy]

Thank you Greg ... I like the picture and I will be sure to add more of mine once I get gun in my hot little hands ... can't wait TBH.

And Thank you as well Dwight ... coming from such a knowledgeable author I am flattered.

[roadkill1]

Spangy

I too love your posts as they are always done with wonderful taste, photos and provide great history on interesting topics!! Thanks for the time you have invested into your posts!!

Ron

[spripple33]

Another great score! Thanks for sharing your research. Very cool.
-Jason

[MFC]

The Swiss also modified many of their Lugers rear sights to the U shape for a better sight picture. It seems that the Germans would have done that at some point during production.

[spangy]

Well I received the gun featured in my above post on sept 09 2021.
The pictures above show the gun's condition as purchased.

The 'SA' officially class this gun as a M08 as it is in 9mm ... the M23 being the original 7,65 pist/23.(m/23) but this point is still highly debatable. The earliest M23's were also issued in 9mm but are much rarer. The Auction house listed the gun as 'LUGER , MODEL: P-08 M23 , CALIBER: 9MM LUGER'.

Upon arrival at my home the first thing I noticed was it was covered in a thin cosmoline type coating ... good for rust prevention and overall condition but an unacceptable sticky, waxy tactile feel.

As I always completely dismantle my guns to discover it's exact condition and thoroughly check for broken parts and cracks etc I set about cleaning this stuff off and re-lubed the gun at the same time.

The only part I was unable to dismantle was the safety of all things. The pin holding the safety lever in seemed to be deliberately crowned on both ends making the pin behave like a rivet ... it was not going to budge no matter what I did. No biggie I thought and decided to leave it alone as the only way I was going to be able to remove the pin was drilling it out ... it wasn't worth the effort at this time so I let it be.

To my surprise and joy the gun was matching for the most part with only the firing pin mismatched by 3 numbers and type ... it is an imperial Erfurt firing pin and not a DWM commercial pin.

The grips too did not match the frame # but did match each other ... again only out by a few numbers.

The fact that the gun does not have matching numbers is too be expected and considered normal for the Finnish SA guns as explained above in the OP.

The breech block has the expected hole drilled in the block as well as described in the OP. Literature on this alteration reveals it was done because the 9mm ammo used by the SA was developed for machine guns and was therefore a very 'hot' load. This also explains why so many of these guns were 'shot out' and re-barreled in Finland by the Tikkakoski works.













Attachment 84064







The gun cleaned up beautifully and I am very pleased to own it.

[wlyon]

Greg
Looks good to this old man!! Bill

[Heinz]

Great posting! Thanks

[lugerholsterrepair]

Odd that an Erfurt firing pin is fluted..Mauser rebuilt some Police pistols in the 30's and some changes were made from original configuration like fluting the firing pin.



Is the toggle pin numbered on this pistol?

[spangy]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Odd that an Erfurt firing pin is fluted

After some more research Jerry here is my answer to the above:

The Finnish Army aka SA were generally 'friendly' with Germany due to its shared hatred of Russia. This relationship remained friendly until about 1940 when the 2 countries fell out over Finland's objection to Germany staging it's all out war on Russia from its Finn/Russian border thus putting the fragile peace between Russia & Finland in jeopardy. The Moscow Armistice, signed on 19 September 1944, demanded that Finland break diplomatic ties with Germany and expel or disarm any German soldiers remaining in Finland after 15 September 1944.
The peace treaty that ended the war in March 1940 left Finnish independence intact. It was the reckless act of joining the Nazi attack on the USSR that endangered Finland’s national existence and cost tens of thousands of lives. In 1944-45 the Red Army could have occupied Finland with impunity, but Stalin chose not to, mainly because Finnish leaders admitted their error and pledged neutrality and friendship with the Soviet Union. “Finlandisation”, as it was called, enabled Finland to remain free of Soviet domination and communist takeover.

Up to and until that time Finland worked in Harmony with Germany including all military ordinances regarding weaponry including firing pins.

The following paragraphs were sourced from pg. 1074 Green edition, Vol. 2, Pistol Parabellum - Gortz & Sturgess.

"For the Reichswehr, alterations of firing pins of pistols in official inventory was ordered to be made by a directive dated September 17, 1930. The job was to be carried out by unit-level armorers, with a deadline for completion of September 30, 1931. Pistols bought from industry after 1930 came fitted with fluted pins.

As usual the police imitated the military approach and relevant decrees were issued in the Bavarian Landespolizei (state police) on May 23rd, 1932, by the Prussian Landespolizei on April 14 1935 and by the Prussian Ordnungspolizei on December 20, 1935."

The above ordinance's applied to all firing pins in military and Police armories irregardless of maker and year.

The toggle pin on this pistol is not numbered as these pistols were purchased as 1920 Commercial DWM 9mm P.08's with only the SA proof added to the pistol in my understanding.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Thanks! The toggle pin on this pistol is not numbered as these pistols were purchased as 1920 Commercial DWM 9mm P.08's with only the SA proof added to the pistol in my understanding.

Further proof that this pistol avoided the Mauser refit a lot of Police pistols went through. Mauser numbered those previously blank DWM toggle pins.
Seems that fluting firing pins, The job was to be carried out by unit-level armorers would require a level above unit armorers? Pretty complex milling machine set up but maybe they were more skilled than I can imagine?

[spangy]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Further proof that this pistol avoided the Mauser refit a lot of Police pistols went through. Mauser numbered those previously blank DWM toggle pins.
Seems that fluting firing pins, The job was to be carried out by unit-level armorers would require a level above unit armorers? Pretty complex milling machine set up but maybe they were more skilled than I can imagine?

You have to remember that the SA is a totally independent entity from the German Army even though they adopted many of Germany's ordinances.

They were under no obligation to do anything that Germany did so unless alterations had already occurred on Luger's they were purchasing or they chose to adopt upgrades to the P.08 there was nothing saying that both countries guns had to be identical.

As for the difficulty fluting firing pins Gortz & Sturgess have this to say on pg. 1074 Vol. 2 of Pistol Parabellum the Green set :

"To produce the flutes in existing old type firing pins, a rounded edge-section grinding wheel of 2.5mm width was to be employed
- if no high-speed grinding machine was at hand, a second cut file of 2.5mm diameter would do the job.
It was forbidden to anneal firing pins for the purpose of fluting
- in case a firing pin would withstand filing due to its hardness, it was to be sent in to the appropriate Ordnance office."

Finland's army had their own armorers which they utilized to transform purchased Commercial Luger's to their liking. Alterations such as the firing pin flutes and the addition of a breech block drilled "Gas Escape" hole preventing the pistol's destruction if the cartridge primer is punctured was done in their military arsenal. Mauser's firing pin mods had nothing to do with the SA mods in my understanding but I reserve the 'right to be wrong'.

Those were great questions Jerry ... Thanks