What's Wrong With This Picture...?

Pete Ebbink · 03-07-2003, 12:29 PM

For sale now...

Who knows what is right/wrong regarding the reported claims about this luger...?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976323426.htm

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 03-07-2003, 04:30 PM

Don't take me as an expert on Swiss Lugers, but the parts dont look strawed and the chamber top looks weird. By chamber top I mean where the date would be located on an normal Luger. I'll go back and look at the picture of the toggle and the Swiss stamp. This could be a learning experience to me.
Big Norm

Thor · 03-07-2003, 06:30 PM

Looks like a real deal to me, with perhaps a bit of touch up on the sideplate. The Swiss Cross in shield looks a bit "smeared??" Lots of features resemble the one shown on page 154-155 of Kenyons MNP. even down to the color of the connecting pin for the toggle links. Serial range looks right! Grips looks a little darker brown than the red/brown shown in MNP. Worth a look by hand I think and a maglight. I am not an expert but the leather straps on the back of the holster look funny, they are riveted or use snaps and I thought they were all sewn on the back, but again I dont know much about Swiss Lugers.

Ronald Welch · 03-07-2003, 07:18 PM

Pete
Looks like its been reblued and a bit over priced.
Regards Ron

Pete Ebbink · 03-07-2003, 09:25 PM

My concern was the fact that this gun has brown grips. I understood the last 1929 model lugers went to black plastic grips and that the factory 9 mm guns should have black plastic grips as well.

The ad claims this is the last of 10 M1929's made...(?)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 03-08-2003, 03:45 AM

This is an interesting piece. First, for Big Norm, '29s do not have strawed parts. Second, for Ron, it is hard to tell from the photos whether it has been reblued. I don't think it has, but it wouldn't be unusual for a Swiss to be reblued, since they were routinely refurbished by the Swiss, and this does not detract much from their value.
Now, if this Luger's serial number is just 780xx, indicating a military Luger, and not P780xx indicating a commercial, that is remarkable in that it is probably 70 or 80 numbers higher than the last "ordnance", or military, '29 Swiss produced according to Bobba (77941 in 1946). The commercials, again according to Bobba, went up to P78258, which would, if commercial, knock this one out of the "last 10 produced".
OK, let's talk about the "prototype" status. What makes it a prototype? There are several examples of 9mm Swiss '29s. One example is 68254, that was probably made around 1943 for evaluation of the 9mm caliber. This serial number certainly predates a 780xx piece, so no experimental label can necessarily be attributed from that standpoint. Several P prefix, or commercial, pieces were made up in 9mm as early as P26xxx, so that rules that out too. I see nothing in the photos that indicates a configuration that would warrant an "experimental" designation.
Having said all that, as Thor observed, the gun does appear to be a "real deal" and certainly worthy of further exploration. The serial number makes it unique enough that brown grips are of a lesser concern than the overall authenticity of the piece.
Would a real expert please step in and clear this up for us?!!

pisto · 03-09-2003, 04:57 AM

Hello ,
according to my book 06/29 Lugers have been made from 50001-77941 from June 1933 to November 1946, in 3 Variations. The diffencence betwenn those are only the material of the grips Ã¢?? first have been Ã¢??red grips (canevasit)Ã¢?? guess around ser. range 50001 to 56 000.
Second style was brown and the black backelite grips have been the last style.
So the serialnumber 780 000 is not recorded by Swiss Lugers! Probably that is the main problem !
Other curious thing is, that the two 9mm prototypes of the model 06/29 are only recorded in the ser. number P 26 291 and P 26 000!!! There are no more 9mm prototypes exiting. Another 9mm variation was produced for private customer purchase to the HÃ?Â¤mmerli factory. Additional 11 of these 9mm variations are delivered to privat customers as well from the W+F factory but they could not be called prototypes.
So I be happy to have a book, where I can find out those details.
The title is : "Pistolen und Revolver der Schweiz seit 1720" from Kriss Rheinhard and JÃ?Â¼rg A.Maier.

Regards

Pete Ebbink · 03-09-2003, 11:19 AM

Thanks to all for your replies and learned opinions.

I did e-mail the seller through the G-A system, but have not, yet, received a reply...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-07-2003, 12:29 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	What's Wrong With This Picture...? For sale now... Who knows what is right/wrong regarding the reported claims about this luger...? http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976323426.htm Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-07-2003, 06:30 PM	#3
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Looks like a real deal to me, with perhaps a bit of touch up on the sideplate. The Swiss Cross in shield looks a bit "smeared??" Lots of features resemble the one shown on page 154-155 of Kenyons MNP. even down to the color of the connecting pin for the toggle links. Serial range looks right! Grips looks a little darker brown than the red/brown shown in MNP. Worth a look by hand I think and a maglight. I am not an expert but the leather straps on the back of the holster look funny, they are riveted or use snaps and I thought they were all sewn on the back, but again I dont know much about Swiss Lugers. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

03-08-2003, 03:45 AM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	This is an interesting piece. First, for Big Norm, '29s do not have strawed parts. Second, for Ron, it is hard to tell from the photos whether it has been reblued. I don't think it has, but it wouldn't be unusual for a Swiss to be reblued, since they were routinely refurbished by the Swiss, and this does not detract much from their value. Now, if this Luger's serial number is just 780xx, indicating a military Luger, and not P780xx indicating a commercial, that is remarkable in that it is probably 70 or 80 numbers higher than the last "ordnance", or military, '29 Swiss produced according to Bobba (77941 in 1946). The commercials, again according to Bobba, went up to P78258, which would, if commercial, knock this one out of the "last 10 produced". OK, let's talk about the "prototype" status. What makes it a prototype? There are several examples of 9mm Swiss '29s. One example is 68254, that was probably made around 1943 for evaluation of the 9mm caliber. This serial number certainly predates a 780xx piece, so no experimental label can necessarily be attributed from that standpoint. Several P prefix, or commercial, pieces were made up in 9mm as early as P26xxx, so that rules that out too. I see nothing in the photos that indicates a configuration that would warrant an "experimental" designation. Having said all that, as Thor observed, the gun does appear to be a "real deal" and certainly worthy of further exploration. The serial number makes it unique enough that brown grips are of a lesser concern than the overall authenticity of the piece. Would a real expert please step in and clear this up for us?!! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

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03-07-2003, 04:30 PM	#2
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Don't take me as an expert on Swiss Lugers, but the parts dont look strawed and the chamber top looks weird. By chamber top I mean where the date would be located on an normal Luger. I'll go back and look at the picture of the toggle and the Swiss stamp. This could be a learning experience to me. Big Norm

03-07-2003, 07:18 PM	#4
Ronald Welch User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Matthews,N.C. Posts: 39 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete Looks like its been reblued and a bit over priced. Regards Ron

03-07-2003, 09:25 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	My concern was the fact that this gun has brown grips. I understood the last 1929 model lugers went to black plastic grips and that the factory 9 mm guns should have black plastic grips as well. The ad claims this is the last of 10 M1929's made...(?) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-09-2003, 04:57 AM	#7
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello , according to my book 06/29 Lugers have been made from 50001-77941 from June 1933 to November 1946, in 3 Variations. The diffencence betwenn those are only the material of the grips Ã¢?? first have been Ã¢??red grips (canevasit)Ã¢?? guess around ser. range 50001 to 56 000. Second style was brown and the black backelite grips have been the last style. So the serialnumber 780 000 is not recorded by Swiss Lugers! Probably that is the main problem ! Other curious thing is, that the two 9mm prototypes of the model 06/29 are only recorded in the ser. number P 26 291 and P 26 000!!! There are no more 9mm prototypes exiting. Another 9mm variation was produced for private customer purchase to the HÃ?Â¤mmerli factory. Additional 11 of these 9mm variations are delivered to privat customers as well from the W+F factory but they could not be called prototypes. So I be happy to have a book, where I can find out those details. The title is : "Pistolen und Revolver der Schweiz seit 1720" from Kriss Rheinhard and JÃ?Â¼rg A.Maier. Regards

03-09-2003, 11:19 AM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks to all for your replies and learned opinions. I did e-mail the seller through the G-A system, but have not, yet, received a reply... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />