1918 Erfurt with out stock lug

M38 · 08-03-2002, 08:19 AM

My 1918 Erfurt does not have a stock lug. Why would someone remove it and is this common?

Thor · 08-03-2002, 10:39 AM

Can you tell if it was removed or made that way? If it was made that way, the bottom of the grip strap would have the same curve side to side as the top. If it was removed, then it would have a flatter spot at the bottom. Serial number of the frame and suffix (if any) MIGHT help also. It appears Erfurt started the numbering sequence over each year, but the later years had more production. This number is located on the frame just above the trigger guard when viewed from the front (make sure the gun is empty and safe first) Generally Erfurts made from 1911 to 1913 did NOT have stock lugs and those after 1913 DID. It appears that those issued in 1913 can be found with and also without the lug. Erfurt stopped production in 1918 (End of WWI)

Edward Tinker · 08-03-2002, 10:39 AM

Years ago stock lugs were removed by owners when they were told by law enforcement, friends, "experts" etc., that owning a gun that could be used with a stock would be illegal. In reality the stock with the wrong gun is what is illegal today, (i.e. in nowadays terms, those guns not approved by the BATF to be legally attached to a stock).

There is a section under General Information on the left links.

Although stock removed Lugers is commonally seen by collectors, many Lugers were never ruined in this way, and thus have more value than a Luger with the lug removed.

Some models did not have a stock lug to start with and further information, serial number, proofs, toggle marking etc., can prove this is a stock removed gun. (Although if the lug is obviously ground, then that is a moot point).

M38 · 08-03-2002, 01:11 PM

Now that I look at it, where the stock lug would have been isn't curved like the rest of the grip strap. It is dated 1918 and the serial number is 4357v.The pistol has been reblued at some point.

Lugerdoc · 08-04-2002, 10:27 AM

M38, Since Jan Still reports the highest observed 1918 Erfurts in the "S" block, if your suffix is indeed a "V", chances are that your frame is from a different PO8. Tom H.

M38 · 08-05-2002, 10:46 AM

Lugerdoc
I was wondering about that. How can I tell what it was from? All of the numbers on the rest of the pistol match the frame number.

Johnny Peppers · 08-05-2002, 11:29 AM

If your frame has the Erfurt Crown/Letter acceptance mark on the front of the triggerguard, it is most likely a 1918 Erfurt frame. If it does not have the acceptance mark, it would be very hard to determine what it came from.

Herb · 08-05-2002, 02:11 PM

M38, to further confuse things, in Costanzo's book 'Luger Proof Marks' he goes into some detail about that 'v' suffix. The 'v, w, x and y suffixes were found only on Mauser Banner Lugers. In your case, serial number 4357v falls into an identified range of 4351v to 4380v which were made in July 1937 and were for a Portugese contract of which only 350 were produced. He cites Datig's 'The Luger Book' as the source, however I havent't checked it to see where the info is. Furthermore the Erfurt Lugers without the stock lug would have been made prior to 1909. Carefully check the frame for Erfurt proofs, inside and out, as Erfurt liked to stamp nearly everything including the grip screws. Their stamp is comprised of a letter with a 'cap' over it, they look sort of like a tiny grip screw from the side in appearance. My guess is you have a parts gun that has been refinished with the addition of the Erfurt toggle train, and has been renumbered to match. I know that this is not good news, and it may not be accurate information but it is what I have available.

Doubs · 08-05-2002, 05:06 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Herb:
<strong>Furthermore the Erfurt Lugers without the stock lug would have been made prior to 1909.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Herb, unless I'm completely wrong, didn't Erfurt continue lugless frames until the last of 1913 just like DWM?

Herb · 08-05-2002, 05:19 PM

Doubs, my info on that is from Luger Tips by Reese where he states that the lug was added upon adoption of the 08 Parabllum by the military, I gave it an extra year for caution. He also refers to the Erfurts manufactured by The Royal Erfurt Arsnel, not the DWM's with an Erfurt toggle train that were in fact made up until the end of 1913. So apparently Erfurt Lugers made before 1908 are without the lug.

Johnny Peppers · 08-05-2002, 06:04 PM

M38,
Sorry for the 1918 date in my post. Intended to indicate that if it had the Erfurt acceptance mark it was an Erfurt frame.

------------------------------------------------
Herb,
The stock lug was not added until late in 1913 on the P08, and Erfurt did not start production until 1910.

Herb · 08-05-2002, 06:25 PM

Reese definitely states that in 1908 Eurfurt Lugers were produced in a limited number by the Royal Arsenel at Eurfurt GE. and will bear the Erfurt inspection stamps. I didn't write it I just reported it. Further AArron Davis in The Luger Handbook shows the model 1908 bearing either the DWM or Eurfurt toggle stamp with some 1913's having a stock lug?? Datig also refers to the 1908 showing up for the first time stamped Eurfurt in several places in his book. Beats me.

Pete Ebbink · 08-05-2002, 07:54 PM

Hello Alan (aka M-38)...

If you have a copy of R. Gibson's book, the Krieghoff Parabellum, on pages 27 to 33; there is a good "features" comparison amongst frames made by DWM, Mauser, Simpson, and Kreighoff.

If your frame is not of Erfurt-make, you might find a clue as to which manufacturer made your frame by comparing your frame with the photos and descriptions of the "typical" features of the other luger manufacturers.

Hope this helps... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

M38 · 08-05-2002, 09:54 PM

Another book I will need to get. I'm finding that a Luger collector also needs to be a book collector (which is fine with me, I love books as much as guns & so far I have "Imperial Lugers" "The Luger Story" and "The Luger Handbook").
There are two markings on the frame on the top front of the trigger guard. Unfortunately even with magnification they aren't clear to my eyes. The lower one is a crown over what may be a gothic letter, but not a lower case letter. The top one is a crown over a box looking thing.
I truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge this forum provides.

Lugerdoc · 08-06-2002, 10:39 AM

Alan, If the proofs on your frame are that difficult to read even with magnification, chances are that your frame has been buffed and reblued. Usually a proof above the normal Erfurt crown over a letter inspectors markings on the front of the trigger guard would be a smaller crown over RC. Tom H.

08-03-2002, 08:19 AM	#1
M38 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern VA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1918 Erfurt with out stock lug My 1918 Erfurt does not have a stock lug. Why would someone remove it and is this common?

08-03-2002, 10:39 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Can you tell if it was removed or made that way? If it was made that way, the bottom of the grip strap would have the same curve side to side as the top. If it was removed, then it would have a flatter spot at the bottom. Serial number of the frame and suffix (if any) MIGHT help also. It appears Erfurt started the numbering sequence over each year, but the later years had more production. This number is located on the frame just above the trigger guard when viewed from the front (make sure the gun is empty and safe first) Generally Erfurts made from 1911 to 1913 did NOT have stock lugs and those after 1913 DID. It appears that those issued in 1913 can be found with and also without the lug. Erfurt stopped production in 1918 (End of WWI) __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-03-2002, 10:39 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Years ago stock lugs were removed by owners when they were told by law enforcement, friends, "experts" etc., that owning a gun that could be used with a stock would be illegal. In reality the stock with the wrong gun is what is illegal today, (i.e. in nowadays terms, those guns not approved by the BATF to be legally attached to a stock). There is a section under General Information on the left links. Although stock removed Lugers is commonally seen by collectors, many Lugers were never ruined in this way, and thus have more value than a Luger with the lug removed. Some models did not have a stock lug to start with and further information, serial number, proofs, toggle marking etc., can prove this is a stock removed gun. (Although if the lug is obviously ground, then that is a moot point). __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-04-2002, 10:27 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	M38, Since Jan Still reports the highest observed 1918 Erfurts in the "S" block, if your suffix is indeed a "V", chances are that your frame is from a different PO8. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

08-05-2002, 02:11 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	M38, to further confuse things, in Costanzo's book 'Luger Proof Marks' he goes into some detail about that 'v' suffix. The 'v, w, x and y suffixes were found only on Mauser Banner Lugers. In your case, serial number 4357v falls into an identified range of 4351v to 4380v which were made in July 1937 and were for a Portugese contract of which only 350 were produced. He cites Datig's 'The Luger Book' as the source, however I havent't checked it to see where the info is. Furthermore the Erfurt Lugers without the stock lug would have been made prior to 1909. Carefully check the frame for Erfurt proofs, inside and out, as Erfurt liked to stamp nearly everything including the grip screws. Their stamp is comprised of a letter with a 'cap' over it, they look sort of like a tiny grip screw from the side in appearance. My guess is you have a parts gun that has been refinished with the addition of the Erfurt toggle train, and has been renumbered to match. I know that this is not good news, and it may not be accurate information but it is what I have available. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-03-2002, 01:11 PM	#4
M38 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern VA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Now that I look at it, where the stock lug would have been isn't curved like the rest of the grip strap. It is dated 1918 and the serial number is 4357v.The pistol has been reblued at some point.

08-05-2002, 10:46 AM	#6
M38 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern VA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Lugerdoc I was wondering about that. How can I tell what it was from? All of the numbers on the rest of the pistol match the frame number.

08-05-2002, 11:29 AM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	If your frame has the Erfurt Crown/Letter acceptance mark on the front of the triggerguard, it is most likely a 1918 Erfurt frame. If it does not have the acceptance mark, it would be very hard to determine what it came from.

08-05-2002, 05:06 PM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Herb: <strong>Furthermore the Erfurt Lugers without the stock lug would have been made prior to 1909.</strong><hr></blockquote> Herb, unless I'm completely wrong, didn't Erfurt continue lugless frames until the last of 1913 just like DWM?

08-05-2002, 05:19 PM	#10
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Doubs, my info on that is from Luger Tips by Reese where he states that the lug was added upon adoption of the 08 Parabllum by the military, I gave it an extra year for caution. He also refers to the Erfurts manufactured by The Royal Erfurt Arsnel, not the DWM's with an Erfurt toggle train that were in fact made up until the end of 1913. So apparently Erfurt Lugers made before 1908 are without the lug. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-05-2002, 06:04 PM	#11
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	M38, Sorry for the 1918 date in my post. Intended to indicate that if it had the Erfurt acceptance mark it was an Erfurt frame. ------------------------------------------------ Herb, The stock lug was not added until late in 1913 on the P08, and Erfurt did not start production until 1910.

08-05-2002, 06:25 PM	#12
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Reese definitely states that in 1908 Eurfurt Lugers were produced in a limited number by the Royal Arsenel at Eurfurt GE. and will bear the Erfurt inspection stamps. I didn't write it I just reported it. Further AArron Davis in The Luger Handbook shows the model 1908 bearing either the DWM or Eurfurt toggle stamp with some 1913's having a stock lug?? Datig also refers to the 1908 showing up for the first time stamped Eurfurt in several places in his book. Beats me. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-05-2002, 07:54 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Alan (aka M-38)... If you have a copy of R. Gibson's book, the Krieghoff Parabellum, on pages 27 to 33; there is a good "features" comparison amongst frames made by DWM, Mauser, Simpson, and Kreighoff. If your frame is not of Erfurt-make, you might find a clue as to which manufacturer made your frame by comparing your frame with the photos and descriptions of the "typical" features of the other luger manufacturers. Hope this helps... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-05-2002, 09:54 PM	#14
M38 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern VA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Another book I will need to get. I'm finding that a Luger collector also needs to be a book collector (which is fine with me, I love books as much as guns & so far I have "Imperial Lugers" "The Luger Story" and "The Luger Handbook"). There are two markings on the frame on the top front of the trigger guard. Unfortunately even with magnification they aren't clear to my eyes. The lower one is a crown over what may be a gothic letter, but not a lower case letter. The top one is a crown over a box looking thing. I truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge this forum provides.

08-06-2002, 10:39 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Alan, If the proofs on your frame are that difficult to read even with magnification, chances are that your frame has been buffed and reblued. Usually a proof above the normal Erfurt crown over a letter inspectors markings on the front of the trigger guard would be a smaller crown over RC. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

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