ATF, Virginia Police Accused of 'Persecuting' Gun Shows

[Roadkill]

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialRe...20050823a.html

ATF, Virginia Police Accused of 'Persecuting' Gun Shows
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
August 23, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - The federal agency that regulates U.S. gun dealers stands accused, along with at least three Virginia law enforcement agencies, of trying to shut down legal gun shows through alleged intimidation of gun buyers and sellers. The law enforcement organizations also allegedly broke the law by sharing gun buyers' information with members of the public.

Annette Gelles, owner of gun show sponsor Showmasters.us, told Cybercast News Service that at least 30 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) along with nearly 500 Virginia State Police, Henrico County Police and Richmond City Police officers were assigned to the ATF operation targeting her gun show on Aug. 13 and 14 at the Richmond International Raceway and Fairground Complex, outside Richmond, Va.

Gelles said four marked police cars were stationed at the main entrance to the raceway parking lot and more than 50 marked and unlabeled but obvious law enforcement vehicles were positioned just outside the public entrance to the building. The officers' presence, Gelles said, was intended to intimidate her customers.

"It's just a persecution thing. It's not really an attempt to solve crimes or stop them," Gelles said. "It's their way of trying to get rid of gun shows. That's the only way you can explain that large a police presence at the gun shows."

Gelles said ATF Resident Agent in Charge Brian Swann told her that the officers were part of a "Virginia State Police, ATF task force" and represented the "same amount of force that we've used in all the shows." The only difference in Gelles' case, Swann told her, was that the command post was established at the site of her gun show.

Virginia State Police (VSP) spokeswoman Corinne Geller told Cybercast News Service that her agency does participate in a task force with ATF and other Virginia law enforcement agencies. As part of the agreement that created the task force, Geller said, VSP agreed to refer questions regarding its operations to ATF.

Richmond Police spokeswoman Kirsten Nelson e-mailed her response to questions about the apparent sting operation.

"I have done some checking and as I said on the phone, the gun show was not in our jurisdiction," Nelson wrote, "so I have no record of our officers' participation."

Gelles said the participation of Richmond Police officers in the operation has already been documented, by Richmond Police officers.

"My own Richmond City Police officers that are there, that I hire for my security purposes, told me that they saw 14 (Richmond City Police officers) on Saturday in plain clothes," Gelles said.

Lt. Doug Perry with Henrico County Police acknowledged that his department's officers took part in the operation, but he would not say how many participated.

"We wouldn't normally release that anyway. That's part of our operational plan, the number of officers involved," Perry said. "We're not on overtime when we're doing that so it wouldn't be public information."

One gun show exhibitor said he counted 72 uniformed and plainclothes officers and agents in and around the vehicles near the entrance to the building. Gelles claimed that an unidentified officer tried to stop the exhibitor from counting the number of law enforcement personnel present, but walked away when the exhibitor refused.

While normal attendance at her two-day show is nearly 4,000, Gelles said she attracted approximately 2,300 the weekend of Aug. 13 and 14, costing Showmasters.us more than $7,000.

'There's no way that's legal'

"They did something else, which is highly illegal," Gelles charged. "They did something called a residency check."

Gelles explained that, when gun dealers took the paperwork to the Virginia State Police on-site office to complete the background checks on prospective buyers, ATF agents copied the names, home addresses and telephone numbers of the applicants.

Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, told Cybercast News Service that he has received numerous complaints alleging that as handgun buyers were waiting for their National Instant Check System (NICS) background investigations to be completed, ATF was secretly conducting the so-called "residency checks."

According to the complaints he received, Van Cleave said officers were dispatched to the homes of the prospective gun buyers to speak with family members, asking for example: "Gee, did you know your husband was going to a gun show today? Do you have his cell phone number? Did you know he was buying a gun?

"If people weren't home they, in some cases, went to neighbors" to ask the same questions, Van Cleave said.

"I'm not an attorney but, I'll tell you what, in my opinion that would be a violation of federal law," Van Cleave said. "To go off on a fishing trip with that information, much less sharing information like that with neighbors, there's no way that's legal."

Title 18 Section 923 of the U.S. Code concerns the licensing of gun dealers and appears to support Van Cleave's position. It contains the following restrictions on the information collected during the process of a gun purchase:

"(g)(3)(B) Except in the case of forms and contents thereof regarding a purchaser who is prohibited by [federal law] from receipt of a firearm, the department of State police or State law enforcement agency or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction shall not disclose any such form or the contents thereof to any person or entity, and shall destroy each such form and any record of the contents thereof no more than 20 days from the date such form is received."

VSP's Geller could not comment on the "residency checks," but said the ATF did not get gun buyers' addresses from her agency. "I can assure you, they weren't getting it from our records," Geller said, "because we don't take addresses."

In fact, the "Department of State Police - Virginia Firearms Transaction Record" form asks for the purchaser's name, date of birth, Social Security or driver's license number and citizenship status. No other identifying information, such as addresses or telephone numbers is requested.

But ATF Form 4473, the "Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-The-Counter," does request the purchaser's address. Those forms are kept together as part of a "buyer's packet" when the VSP form is submitted for the NICS check.

Erich Pratt, communications director for Gun Owners of America (GOA), told Cybercast News Service that these types of allegations against ATF are exactly why GOA members opposed the NICS background check when it was initially proposed.

"Whenever you force good people to jump through hoops before they exercise their rights, you give rogue bureaucrats a chance to harass decent citizens," Pratt said.

"We have a Bill of Rights because government does not always act in our best interest," he continued. "Rather than being spied upon, the American people should be the ones questioning family members and neighbors - not of gun owners - but of these rogue bureaucrats."

ATF agent allegedly 'got quite rude' with gun show customer

James Lalime, who works part time for a gun dealer, was attending the Richmond show on his own. He had brought two firearms and part of a third from his personal collection to offer for sale at the show, which is legal and does not require a federal firearms license (FFL) or local business license.

Lalime claims a man approached him and verbally identified himself as an ATF agent but did not show his credentials or badge.

"He was accusing me of running a business and telling me that I needed to get a business license if I was going to sell firearms," Lalime charged.

The agent allegedly had state police check Lalime's driver's license and learned that it was suspended. He said he was placed in the back of a police car and questioned by the agent while the suspension was investigated.

"He kept asking me all kinds of questions: 'How often do you buy guns? When do you buy guns? When was the last time you bought a gun? How many guns did you buy the last time you bought guns?'" Lalime continued. "All that is irrelevant and I told him that. I said, 'That's my personal business.'"

Lalime was released when it was learned that his license was valid and the alleged suspension was caused by a computer error. He went back into the gun show and told Gelles about the encounter and she suggested that Lalime get the agent's name.

When he found the agent, who identified himself as Special Agent Brian McComas, Lalime claims McComas tried to intimidate him.

"He said, 'You know you're making a big deal about nothing,' and I said, 'No sir, I am not,'" Lalime explained. "Then he got right in my face, almost touching his chest to mine, in real threatening posture, and said, 'You're making a real big mistake.'"

Lalime claims Swann interrupted the confrontation and the two federal officers walked away. "Once I got over the initial shock, it really made me angry," Lalime said.

ATF is 'out of the residency check business'

Gelles and her attorneys were in Washington, D.C., Aug. 15 to meet with ATF officials and seek an explanation for what happened over the weekend. After talking with several people in the ATF headquarters, Gelles said she finally spoke with a supervisor, whom she would not identify, who assured her that ATF "is out of the residency check business, effective immediately."

She was hesitant to give further details about the meeting in the event that a lawsuit is filed over the agency's actions.

In addition to the $7,000 she said she lost from reduced attendance at the show, Gelles added that she has already spent more than $12,000 in legal fees trying to prevent a repeat of the ATF operation of Aug. 13 and 14 and other previous incidents of what she considers improper agency behavior.

Van Cleave said his groups will be "watching in Virginia with a microscope to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again.

"If they do it again, we'll get active in contacting the ATF, the police and the media," Van Cleave warned. "If they break their word on this and start this crap again, then we will be in touch with the media."

After more than a half-dozen calls by Cybercast News Service seeking comment for this article, an ATF spokesman said the agency was "still gathering information" about the events of Aug. 13 and 14 and would not be able to comment until sometime on Tuesday.

[John Sabato]

Thanks RK, I apreciate you posting this news item... as I live in Virginia... I wasn;'t at the show in question, but have never seen such behavior before... and hope that no one sees it again.

I know that George Anderson was there ... perhaps he will chime in and tell us what he observed.

[lew1]

And this occured while Bush is President.

[John Sabato]

Sure...but can you imagine what the result would have been if CLINTON was still president, or heaven forbid, the sportsmans friend KERRY was president??? All the weapons would have been confiscated until the ATF had "researched" their origins...

Some overzealous ATF management type is probably digging for deep cover about his decision since this story broke... This story, and the activities of that weekend will die a quiet death... AMEN.

[Edward Tinker]

really, it shouldn't be allowed to die a quiet death, this should be pushed, so that in 6 months after most folks have forgotten, it can't be done again in California, Nevada, etc.


ed

[Roadkill]

"I have done some checking and as I said on the phone, the gun show was not in our jurisdiction," Nelson wrote, "so I have no record of our officers' participation."

"Of course, we know he pursued a strategy of denial from the beginning: never, so far as we know, putting his signature on a written order (relying on oral Fuhrer-orders)





"One gun show exhibitor said he counted 72 uniformed and plainclothes officers and agents in and around the vehicles near the entrance to the building."

[lew1]

Originally posted by John Sabato
Sure...but can you imagine what the result would have been if CLINTON was still president, or heaven forbid, the sportsmans friend KERRY was president??? All the weapons would have been confiscated until the ATF had "researched" their origins...

Some overzealous ATF management type is probably digging for deep cover about his decision since this story broke... This story, and the activities of that weekend will die a quiet death... AMEN.

Did such a situation occur under Clinton?

[Roadkill]

Waco

[Russ]

Ruby Ridge

[lew1]

Originally posted by Roadkill
Waco

Not a gun show.

[lew1]

Originally posted by Russ
Ruby Ridge

Not a gun show.

[Ron Smith]

I believe the point is.

That George Bush is the President NOW. And this happened NOW. It isn't Ruby Ridge and it is'nt Waco. And Bill Clinton is not the President. George Bush is.

[Navy]

I suggest that the proprietors need to do a minimum of two things:

1. File a complaint with the agency IG
2. Report this entire matter to Virginia Congress-critters and ask them to intervene.

This is clearly the work of some addled-brain mid level silly servant who was looking to get some exposure. So lets give it to him.

Tom A.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Beuracratic agencies are often not closely regulated by the President. They run their own show despite the platform and intentions of the Adminastration. UNTILL exposure brings their nefarious deeds to light. Lifting the pot lid makes the roaches scurry. It's amazing that these small minded faschists exist in a free country but they do. They have some power and the means to intimidate lawfull citizens so instead of the real hard dangerous work of catching criminals they choose Nazi tactics for their own pleasure. Really sick people. It should be required for federal beauracrats to read the Bill of Rights once a week.
What is disgusting is the opposite end of this, all the brave and noble loyal American Law enforcement people who respect the citizenry. The are people who pay for the actions of these small men. Jerry Burney

[George Anderson]

My initial snooping indicates that the whole thing might be locally initiated with the BATF sorta going along for the ride. Apparently there is a local Richmond organization intent upon saving Richmond from "GUN VIOLENCE". They have a bit of clout and are similar in makeup to the usual suspect organizations; NEA, National Council of Churches, NAACP, etc. Politics in Richmond tends to be Democrat dominated and the governor is one himself.

The majority of the so-called task force was made up of Henrico County Police, Virginia State Police and Richmond Police, the last being out of uniform and out of jurisdiction.

The Virginia Governor serves only one six year term. Alot of culture can be affected in the State Police over a six year period.

Telephone lines are buzzing and action is anticipated.

[thegundude]

George, did you see any of this illegal activity while you were at the show (assuming you were at the show)? I'd love to hear a first hand accounting of it.

lew1, in what way does the president of the United States run the day to day operations of the BATFE? Do you also blame presidents for the disposition of the stock market? Or the price of gas? The amount of violence in our schools?

Look, there's a lot you can lay blame on him for, but the day to day actions of every single government agency isn't exactly his "jurisdiction"... Thanks for taking this one instance of a bureaucrat or two run amoke and blaming, yet again, GW Bush.

[George Anderson]

The bureauacracy in Washington is like an asparagus patch; they take a long time to get established and can't be wiped-out over night. GW inherited eight years of some of the most radical leftist hiring in the recent history of DC. Not only is the BATF subject to this but also the FBI, CIA and Department of Defense. Once these bastards are hired you have to wait for them to die before replacing them.

As to personal witnessing, I can not comment as I slipped out at 1500 on Saturday.

[lew1]

Originally posted by thegundude
George, did you see any of this illegal activity while you were at the show (assuming you were at the show)? I'd love to hear a first hand accounting of it.

lew1, in what way does the president of the United States run the day to day operations of the BATFE? Do you also blame presidents for the disposition of the stock market? Or the price of gas? The amount of violence in our schools?

Look, there's a lot you can lay blame on him for, but the day to day actions of every single government agency isn't exactly his "jurisdiction"... Thanks for taking this one instance of a bureaucrat or two run amoke and blaming, yet again, GW Bush.

Stop being silly. The stock market, gas, violence are not under the control of the president. But, the employees of ATF are under his control, just like the employees of P&G are under the control of the CEO. If employees of P&G do not follow the directions of the CEO, I have this feeling that they will be looking for a different job.

Likewise, when I run a business, my employees follow my directions under the chain of command. If they do not, they will be no longer be my employees.

The people in ATF are employees of the government and the president is the CEO. They should be following his directions or policies or else be looking for a job. The chain ofcommand is there to control them.

Of course, this is the president that said he would sign the renewal of the assult weapon ban.

[Edward Tinker]

interesting reading, but I'll end this so it doesn't get more insulting to each other....