Be Careful Out There...

Pete Ebbink · 12-23-2004, 10:45 PM

Found this article that provides more details of the Ellis/Zomber fraud affair :

http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/...fraud_case.htm

Both of these fellows can still be seen on some of the re-run shows of "Tales Of The Gun" on the History Channel...

Scott H. · 12-23-2004, 11:15 PM

Very interesting article. I am always amused by the fact that some people let greed cloud there better judgement. Surely these people that were committing fraud on this level must have known they would get caught some day. I hope they are in prison long enough to regret what they did. Do you know of any cases where someone has committed fraud on this level that involved misrepresenting a Luger?

Scott

Edward Tinker · 12-23-2004, 11:18 PM

I don't believe where they were prosecuted...

Doug G. · 12-24-2004, 12:16 AM

Pete do you know if this is the Ellis from Ellis auctions in Moline Illinois? I had hear a rumor awhile back that it was him?

minigun · 12-24-2004, 10:37 AM

Kinda looked like they were actually prosecuted from the article. OMG! What a fraud.

Edward Tinker · 12-24-2004, 11:01 AM

But not lugers, which is what the question was,

I remember reading about this a while ago, colts have been collected for a long time, so fraud is tempting...

Ed

lew1 · 12-24-2004, 12:32 PM

Doug

It "was" the Ellis from the Rock Island auctions in Moline Illinois. If you look at their web site, his name is no longer shown.

Pete Ebbink · 12-27-2004, 12:53 PM

Same Ellis...and the same guy that did the publishing of C. Kenyon's 2nd. book...

Hi Scott H.,

Not on this level with lugers...but this sort of happens at gun shows (and now some web sites...) all the time with boosted lugers sold as "original" or as a "rare variation"...just at a much less financial value range. Until a really weathly buyer gets stung for Millions...not sure if we will see such similar prosecutions in the luger field...

Pete...

Big Norm · 12-29-2004, 12:27 AM

Pete,
I can only hope that you are right. But wasn't a reported original .45 cal Luger carbine found in Canada a while back with Shattuck handling the sale? If sold as original, it would have gone for a bundle. There was a lot of discussion at the time on the forum but I don't remember the end result.

But even though Lugers don't command the big bucks, there are a lot of forgeries and otherwised messed with Lugers out there in an attempt to jack up their prices. I remember once seeing a unit marked 1917 artillery Luger trying to be sold at a OGCA meeting. The gun was the laughing stock of the show but the seller didn't know it. I looked at the gun just to see how far the seller would go to justify his high price for a Luger whose unit markings were obviously faked. It was sickening. Even worse, the artillery was, otherwise, a nice artillery. BUYER BEWARE! It hurts the little guys too.
Big Norm

Ron Smith · 12-29-2004, 08:58 AM

Norm,
If I remember correctly, the "Million Dollar" carbine sold for $750,000 at, I believe the Las Vegas show, last year? Pete can correct me on this, but I think that's what I heard.

Ron

Malcolm P. · 12-29-2004, 11:30 AM

All it takes if you end up the victim of a fraud is going to the police and the district attorney and filing charges. If it involves altered serial numbers on the receiver, ATF may also like to be involved. I also recommend filing a civil suit, even if it is in small claims court with jurisdiction.

As long as people think they can get away with these kinds of things, they will try. Bring criminal charges when you are stung by a crook and they sure won't in the future, as much because felons cannot own firearms as anything else.

Pete Ebbink · 12-29-2004, 01:30 PM

Hi Ron,

I had not heard the controversial .45 luger carbine (serial # 21) had actually sold...but I do not hear everything...

Looks like it is still listed for sale on the WOL web site...but that could just mean the site has not been updated.

It was great to be able to see and hold this carbine in my hands at Reno a couple of years back...some other LF members got that chance as well. How often does a luger beginner like myself get to hold the most controversial and interesting luger of its day ?

Regards,

Pete...

lew1 · 12-29-2004, 01:34 PM

When Ralph let me handle/hold it at Kansas City, it was a nice piece. Now if I only had the money .......

(When Ralph put it back, he forgot to close the display case and someone else picked it up (without gloves even). No one has ever seen Ralph move so fast.)

Malcolm P. · 12-29-2004, 03:53 PM

Norm,

Just for enlightment since I am trying to learn all I can about unit marked Lugers (cause those are the ones I am planning on buying), what was it about the 1917 artillery that was so obviously a fake?

Hugh · 12-30-2004, 01:57 AM

Tacfoley,

I am in awe of your wonderful collection of histerical, I mean, historical Lugers! I am sure you would be interested in purchasing a genuine James Bowie Luger & Knife set, presented in a case made from genuine Alamo stone with the famous slogan "Remember The Alamo" laser engraved on the top. This rare treasure comes with affadavit of authenticity signed by James himself immediately after the Battle of the Alamo! This priceless treasure is presently resting in a secret vault deep in the swamps of east Texas and guarded round the clock by a very vicious, hungry 20 ft alligator. However, it can be made available to such a descerning collector as yourself.

Ron Smith · 01-01-2005, 11:23 AM

Gill and Tac,
Years ago when I was a window clerk at the Post Office. We had a British couple come in on a regular basis. He was a retired Brit Petty Officer. We hit it off right away. As we had the same smartass sense of humor.
One day just prior to the 4th of July. Without thinking I said, " Have a great 4th!" His wifes eyes popped open in surprise. He looked at me and said" I will, I'm running up the Union Jack and pulling the Bloody F*****g blinds!"
It's hard to walk with a foot in your mouth.

Not intending to rub salt, just making light of an unfortunate situation.

Ron

DougT · 01-01-2005, 02:04 PM

G.W. Gill: You're posting when you're drunk? And then later apologizing? I suggest that you make a determined effort to find out why you're drinking to the point of "blacking out"--which is what the alcoholics call it when you can't remember what you said and did while under the influence. And for heavens sake, stay off the forum if you're drinking!
DougT

G.W. Gill · 01-01-2005, 11:26 PM

Happy New Year to all! Especially Tac, He gets to start celebrating hours ahead. Unless I start a whole day early! May all have a fulfilling and prosperous 2005! I deleted several posts. I made in an error of temperance. A buddy told me about a guy who wore a salt and pepper shaker around his neck. I asked why and he said it went down better when he put his foot in his mouth. I say Happy New Year! And be careful, somebody could make a mess of a thing with all this holliday stuff and not have the salt and pepper shakers ready. I ought to know..

Pete, I owe you an apology for busting your thread. Your warnings are valid . I can't believe the situation about Gen. Picketts belongings.

Pete Ebbink · 01-02-2005, 01:43 PM

Hi GW,

No need to apologize...I always look forward to where a discussion thread heads..

Sometimes I will try to pull a discussion "back on topic" if a member's question got overlooked along the way...

Regards,

Pete...

12-23-2004, 10:45 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Be Careful Out There... Found this article that provides more details of the Ellis/Zomber fraud affair : http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/...fraud_case.htm Both of these fellows can still be seen on some of the re-run shows of "Tales Of The Gun" on the History Channel...

12-23-2004, 11:18 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I don't believe where they were prosecuted... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-24-2004, 12:16 AM	#4
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Pete do you know if this is the Ellis from Ellis auctions in Moline Illinois? I had hear a rumor awhile back that it was him? __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

12-24-2004, 12:32 PM	#7
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	Doug It "was" the Ellis from the Rock Island auctions in Moline Illinois. If you look at their web site, his name is no longer shown. __________________ charlie

12-27-2004, 12:53 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Yes... Same Ellis...and the same guy that did the publishing of C. Kenyon's 2nd. book... Hi Scott H., Not on this level with lugers...but this sort of happens at gun shows (and now some web sites...) all the time with boosted lugers sold as "original" or as a "rare variation"...just at a much less financial value range. Until a really weathly buyer gets stung for Millions...not sure if we will see such similar prosecutions in the luger field... Pete...

12-23-2004, 11:15 PM	#2
Scott H. User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: The Great Northwest Posts: 66 Thanks: 10 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Very interesting article. I am always amused by the fact that some people let greed cloud there better judgement. Surely these people that were committing fraud on this level must have known they would get caught some day. I hope they are in prison long enough to regret what they did. Do you know of any cases where someone has committed fraud on this level that involved misrepresenting a Luger? Scott

12-24-2004, 10:37 AM	#5
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	Kinda looked like they were actually prosecuted from the article. OMG! What a fraud.

12-24-2004, 11:01 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	But not lugers, which is what the question was, I remember reading about this a while ago, colts have been collected for a long time, so fraud is tempting... Ed

12-29-2004, 12:27 AM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, I can only hope that you are right. But wasn't a reported original .45 cal Luger carbine found in Canada a while back with Shattuck handling the sale? If sold as original, it would have gone for a bundle. There was a lot of discussion at the time on the forum but I don't remember the end result. But even though Lugers don't command the big bucks, there are a lot of forgeries and otherwised messed with Lugers out there in an attempt to jack up their prices. I remember once seeing a unit marked 1917 artillery Luger trying to be sold at a OGCA meeting. The gun was the laughing stock of the show but the seller didn't know it. I looked at the gun just to see how far the seller would go to justify his high price for a Luger whose unit markings were obviously faked. It was sickening. Even worse, the artillery was, otherwise, a nice artillery. BUYER BEWARE! It hurts the little guys too. Big Norm

12-29-2004, 08:58 AM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Norm, If I remember correctly, the "Million Dollar" carbine sold for $750,000 at, I believe the Las Vegas show, last year? Pete can correct me on this, but I think that's what I heard. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-29-2004, 11:30 AM	#11
Malcolm P. User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	All it takes if you end up the victim of a fraud is going to the police and the district attorney and filing charges. If it involves altered serial numbers on the receiver, ATF may also like to be involved. I also recommend filing a civil suit, even if it is in small claims court with jurisdiction. As long as people think they can get away with these kinds of things, they will try. Bring criminal charges when you are stung by a crook and they sure won't in the future, as much because felons cannot own firearms as anything else.

12-29-2004, 01:30 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Don't Know... Hi Ron, I had not heard the controversial .45 luger carbine (serial # 21) had actually sold...but I do not hear everything... Looks like it is still listed for sale on the WOL web site...but that could just mean the site has not been updated. It was great to be able to see and hold this carbine in my hands at Reno a couple of years back...some other LF members got that chance as well. How often does a luger beginner like myself get to hold the most controversial and interesting luger of its day ? Regards, Pete...

12-29-2004, 01:34 PM	#13
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	When Ralph let me handle/hold it at Kansas City, it was a nice piece. Now if I only had the money ....... (When Ralph put it back, he forgot to close the display case and someone else picked it up (without gloves even). No one has ever seen Ralph move so fast.) __________________ charlie

12-29-2004, 03:53 PM	#14
Malcolm P. User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Norm, Just for enlightment since I am trying to learn all I can about unit marked Lugers (cause those are the ones I am planning on buying), what was it about the 1917 artillery that was so obviously a fake?

12-30-2004, 01:57 AM	#15
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Tacfoley, I am in awe of your wonderful collection of histerical, I mean, historical Lugers! I am sure you would be interested in purchasing a genuine James Bowie Luger & Knife set, presented in a case made from genuine Alamo stone with the famous slogan "Remember The Alamo" laser engraved on the top. This rare treasure comes with affadavit of authenticity signed by James himself immediately after the Battle of the Alamo! This priceless treasure is presently resting in a secret vault deep in the swamps of east Texas and guarded round the clock by a very vicious, hungry 20 ft alligator. However, it can be made available to such a descerning collector as yourself. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

01-01-2005, 11:23 AM	#16
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Gill and Tac, Years ago when I was a window clerk at the Post Office. We had a British couple come in on a regular basis. He was a retired Brit Petty Officer. We hit it off right away. As we had the same smartass sense of humor. One day just prior to the 4th of July. Without thinking I said, " Have a great 4th!" His wifes eyes popped open in surprise. He looked at me and said" I will, I'm running up the Union Jack and pulling the Bloody F***g blinds!" It's hard to walk with a foot in your mouth. Not intending to rub salt, just making light of an unfortunate situation. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~** said...

01-01-2005, 02:04 PM	#17
DougT User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 171 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	G.W. Gill: You're posting when you're drunk? And then later apologizing? I suggest that you make a determined effort to find out why you're drinking to the point of "blacking out"--which is what the alcoholics call it when you can't remember what you said and did while under the influence. And for heavens sake, stay off the forum if you're drinking! DougT

01-01-2005, 11:26 PM	#18
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Happy New Year to all! Especially Tac, He gets to start celebrating hours ahead. Unless I start a whole day early! May all have a fulfilling and prosperous 2005! I deleted several posts. I made in an error of temperance. A buddy told me about a guy who wore a salt and pepper shaker around his neck. I asked why and he said it went down better when he put his foot in his mouth. I say Happy New Year! And be careful, somebody could make a mess of a thing with all this holliday stuff and not have the salt and pepper shakers ready. I ought to know.. Pete, I owe you an apology for busting your thread. Your warnings are valid . I can't believe the situation about Gen. Picketts belongings. Last edited by G.W. Gill; 01-02-2005 at 02:03 AM.

01-02-2005, 01:43 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	No Need... Hi GW, No need to apologize...I always look forward to where a discussion thread heads.. Sometimes I will try to pull a discussion "back on topic" if a member's question got overlooked along the way... Regards, Pete...