Stupid newbie question...

thegundude · 01-13-2005, 06:56 PM

Hey guys,

I'm new to Lugers (I don't have any yet) and I have finally made the decision to buy one. Might as well before they become absolutely rediculous in price, right? They are one of the ulimate collectable pistols after all.

So here's my first stupid question. What is a "Black Widow" Luger? And are they more valuable than other types?

Another one that cropped up was, what is byf (41?)?

Thanks in advance,

Steve

Thor · 01-13-2005, 07:08 PM

Steve, see this link for this common question. It is at the bottom of the page. FA Luger QUestions CLICK HERE
byf is the toggle code for MAUSER used in 1941 and 942. 41 is the year (1941) the gun was made by Mauser.

John Sabato · 01-14-2005, 09:38 AM

Welcome to the Lugerforum Steve...

... and no question is stupid if you don't know the answer. This forum is all about sharing information...

Thor · 01-14-2005, 09:41 AM

I agree with John. That question was in the mind of most folks when they first heard the term Black Widow Luger. Welcome sir!

thegundude · 01-14-2005, 01:06 PM

Thank you gentlemen for the information and warm welcome. I can't wait to buy my first Luger, but I don't want to rush in blindly before doing so. I prefer to learn my valuable lessons at the least possible expense to myself. :-)

I'm also a member - and have been for some time - of Parallax Bills C&R forum. Personally, I like to answer the stupid newbie questions over there. It's usually the only kind I CAN answer.... Funny how among my friends I'm the gun expert, but when I visit forums like this I realize how very little I actually know. If I'd have known that before registering on PBs site, I'd have chosen the screen name "MrKnowNothing". :-P

Thanks again guys. You can count on seeing me for a while, mostly lurking and learning, but asking the occasional stupid question so that I may select the proper Luger for the right price. I see it's easy to get ripped off if you're not educated enough.....

thegundude · 01-14-2005, 01:18 PM

Thor, thanks for the link and Black Widow information. Very helpful, all of it....

So if the BW is an American thing, does that make it less collectable or lesss valuable? Or more so due to it's relative rarity?

Thor · 01-14-2005, 01:25 PM

Most Black Widows will go for perhaps $200 more than Walnut gripped versions if I remember right, we need Mr Frank to post about this, he is the Mauser expert that is most active on the forum. Glad I could be of help. The other thing that you need to know is because these sell for a premium lots of reproduction grips have been made to convert a standard byf to Black Widow status. You can use the search function to check for lots of threads regarding Black Widow grips, about the screw threads in the grip screw hole (back of the grips) etc. Lots to learn about them.

Edward Tinker · 01-14-2005, 03:37 PM

Welcome to the forum gundude;

and value wise, from my limited experience in these (none!), that rare is a relative term, desire by other collectors is more improtant. Case in point is some early guns made prior to 1910, they might be "rarer", yet a "Black Widow" will sell for many hundreds of dollars more!

Ed

Frank · 01-15-2005, 09:45 AM

Hey Thor, no need for me to comment. Your post was right on the money. Your caution on the fake grips was very appropriate.

It is strange how a term like "Black Widow" can enhance the price of a pistol. I personally, prefer the good old wood grips. It doesn't mean I don't own a BW, just prefer wood!

thegundude · 01-15-2005, 11:46 AM

I guess I'll just keep reading up and asking dumb questions for a few months then. :-) You guys are an excellent resource and I appreciate you all.....

I'll need to keep my eyes open for a while...

Balder · 01-15-2005, 12:03 PM

gundude,

Welcome to the forum; I have been hanging out here for a few years and I've learned a lot from all the knowledgeable gentlemen (unfortunately, no women here...) on this site. Of all the gun boards I've seen this is by far the most informative and serious. I guess you have figured out what a Black Widow is by now, here is a picture of mine:

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa..._007_copy1.jpg

Good luck on purchasing your first Luger - there's no turning back after that - Lugeritis is quite contagious...

Regards,

Balder

Ron Smith · 01-15-2005, 12:22 PM

Steve,
As I have said before. Ain't no dumb questions, just dumb answers.

It's dumb not to ask. And can be very expensive when dealing with this obsession. I know from experience.

In my opinion Third reich Lugers, due to the popularity of the Nazi mystic, command the highest prices and are the most commonly boosted variations. Other than Navys, which are a whole different set of nightmares.

As Thor said. Frank is the guy to ask, if you run across a "Mouser" you are interested in.

Ron

Thor · 01-15-2005, 12:22 PM

I think my old buddy Hugh Clark was trying to coin a simlar phrase "White Widow" for all his nickel plated "Lugers" lol! But I dont think that one went very far!!

Ron Smith · 01-15-2005, 12:34 PM

Ted,

I would be inclined to call any Luger a Widow Maker. Since my wife will be a widow if she ever finds out how much I've spent on these things. Albeit, self-imposed.
Kind of like the guy who after murdering his parents. Threw himself on the mercy of the court, because he was an orphan.

Ron

Don M · 01-15-2005, 02:14 PM

Ron,

Try "innocent by reason of insanity." That's my defense!

Navy · 01-15-2005, 02:16 PM

All,

Don't worry about what wimmen think about your guns. When they are your widows and they sell 'em off, they will be thanking you mightily.

You do, however, need to have some instructions in your will or with a trusted friend/relative about who and how to get 'em appraised and noting anything special about individual pieces.

Remember, no body gets out alive...leave a message of what should be done with your stuff.

Tom A.

thegundude · 01-15-2005, 06:01 PM

The woman I'm not worried about. The day she tells me how to spend my money is the day I tell her how to brush her hair.

Buying a worthless piece of junk trying to save a buck is what scares me.... But after reviewing some of the SOG (billboard) Lugers gotten by some buddies and seeing what they want at auction has gotten me thinking of calling up SOG again. Some of those guns have matching numbers and $675 including the handpick is pretty cheap. I don't think I'll find them that low again.

Now I just don't know what to do. I don't want to spend a thousand dollars on a gun just to have one. :-(

thegundude · 01-15-2005, 06:09 PM

"Remember, no body gets out alive...leave a message of what should be done with your stuff."

Tom, that's good advice.... ;^)

Ron Smith · 01-15-2005, 10:44 PM

Steve,
The difference is that if you spend $1000 on the right gun. It will be worth $1500-$2000 in just a few years. Junk will always be junk. Lugers are the best investment going. Provided you invest wisely, and get advice.
And there is no better place to get that advice, than The Luger Forum and Jan Still's Forum. And read books , books and more books. Learn to know what you are looking at, and looking for.

Good luck, Ron

Edward Tinker · 01-15-2005, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Smith
Steve,
The difference is that if you spend $1000 on the right gun. It will be worth $1500-$2000 in just a few years. Junk will always be junk.

I agree, although a shooter is fun, you can find a "low-end-collectable" for around $700, and that is what a SOG will cost you with shipping, hand pick etc.

Now, if they drop the price another $150, then I will be considering one too...

Ed

01-13-2005, 06:56 PM	#1
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Stupid newbie question... Hey guys, I'm new to Lugers (I don't have any yet) and I have finally made the decision to buy one. Might as well before they become absolutely rediculous in price, right? They are one of the ulimate collectable pistols after all. So here's my first stupid question. What is a "Black Widow" Luger? And are they more valuable than other types? Another one that cropped up was, what is byf (41?)? Thanks in advance, Steve __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

01-13-2005, 07:08 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Black Widow Luger Steve, see this link for this common question. It is at the bottom of the page. FA Luger QUestions CLICK HERE byf is the toggle code for MAUSER used in 1941 and 942. 41 is the year (1941) the gun was made by Mauser. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-14-2005, 09:38 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum Steve... ... and no question is stupid if you don't know the answer. This forum is all about sharing information... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-14-2005, 09:41 AM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I agree with John. That question was in the mind of most folks when they first heard the term Black Widow Luger. Welcome sir! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-14-2005, 01:06 PM	#5
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Thank you gentlemen for the information and warm welcome. I can't wait to buy my first Luger, but I don't want to rush in blindly before doing so. I prefer to learn my valuable lessons at the least possible expense to myself. :-) I'm also a member - and have been for some time - of Parallax Bills C&R forum. Personally, I like to answer the stupid newbie questions over there. It's usually the only kind I CAN answer.... Funny how among my friends I'm the gun expert, but when I visit forums like this I realize how very little I actually know. If I'd have known that before registering on PBs site, I'd have chosen the screen name "MrKnowNothing". :-P Thanks again guys. You can count on seeing me for a while, mostly lurking and learning, but asking the occasional stupid question so that I may select the proper Luger for the right price. I see it's easy to get ripped off if you're not educated enough..... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

01-14-2005, 01:18 PM	#6
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Thor, thanks for the link and Black Widow information. Very helpful, all of it.... So if the BW is an American thing, does that make it less collectable or lesss valuable? Or more so due to it's relative rarity? __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

01-14-2005, 01:25 PM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Most Black Widows will go for perhaps $200 more than Walnut gripped versions if I remember right, we need Mr Frank to post about this, he is the Mauser expert that is most active on the forum. Glad I could be of help. The other thing that you need to know is because these sell for a premium lots of reproduction grips have been made to convert a standard byf to Black Widow status. You can use the search function to check for lots of threads regarding Black Widow grips, about the screw threads in the grip screw hole (back of the grips) etc. Lots to learn about them. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-14-2005, 03:37 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Welcome to the forum gundude; and value wise, from my limited experience in these (none!), that rare is a relative term, desire by other collectors is more improtant. Case in point is some early guns made prior to 1910, they might be "rarer", yet a "Black Widow" will sell for many hundreds of dollars more! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-15-2005, 09:45 AM	#9
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hey Thor, no need for me to comment. Your post was right on the money. Your caution on the fake grips was very appropriate. It is strange how a term like "Black Widow" can enhance the price of a pistol. I personally, prefer the good old wood grips. It doesn't mean I don't own a BW, just prefer wood!

01-15-2005, 11:46 AM	#10
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	I guess I'll just keep reading up and asking dumb questions for a few months then. :-) You guys are an excellent resource and I appreciate you all..... I'll need to keep my eyes open for a while... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

01-15-2005, 12:03 PM	#11
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	gundude, Welcome to the forum; I have been hanging out here for a few years and I've learned a lot from all the knowledgeable gentlemen (unfortunately, no women here...) on this site. Of all the gun boards I've seen this is by far the most informative and serious. I guess you have figured out what a Black Widow is by now, here is a picture of mine: http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa..._007_copy1.jpg Good luck on purchasing your first Luger - there's no turning back after that - Lugeritis is quite contagious... Regards, Balder Last edited by Balder; 01-15-2005 at 12:48 PM.

01-15-2005, 12:22 PM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Steve, As I have said before. Ain't no dumb questions, just dumb answers. It's dumb not to ask. And can be very expensive when dealing with this obsession. I know from experience. In my opinion Third reich Lugers, due to the popularity of the Nazi mystic, command the highest prices and are the most commonly boosted variations. Other than Navys, which are a whole different set of nightmares. As Thor said. Frank is the guy to ask, if you run across a "Mouser" you are interested in. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-15-2005, 12:22 PM	#13
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	White Widows I think my old buddy Hugh Clark was trying to coin a simlar phrase "White Widow" for all his nickel plated "Lugers" lol! But I dont think that one went very far!! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-15-2005, 12:34 PM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ted, I would be inclined to call any Luger a Widow Maker. Since my wife will be a widow if she ever finds out how much I've spent on these things. Albeit, self-imposed. Kind of like the guy who after murdering his parents. Threw himself on the mercy of the court, because he was an orphan. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-15-2005, 02:14 PM	#15
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Ron, Try "innocent by reason of insanity." That's my defense! __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

01-15-2005, 02:16 PM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, Don't worry about what wimmen think about your guns. When they are your widows and they sell 'em off, they will be thanking you mightily. You do, however, need to have some instructions in your will or with a trusted friend/relative about who and how to get 'em appraised and noting anything special about individual pieces. Remember, no body gets out alive...leave a message of what should be done with your stuff. Tom A.

01-15-2005, 06:01 PM	#17
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	The woman I'm not worried about. The day she tells me how to spend my money is the day I tell her how to brush her hair. Buying a worthless piece of junk trying to save a buck is what scares me.... But after reviewing some of the SOG (billboard) Lugers gotten by some buddies and seeing what they want at auction has gotten me thinking of calling up SOG again. Some of those guns have matching numbers and $675 including the handpick is pretty cheap. I don't think I'll find them that low again. Now I just don't know what to do. I don't want to spend a thousand dollars on a gun just to have one. :-( __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

01-15-2005, 06:09 PM	#18
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	"Remember, no body gets out alive...leave a message of what should be done with your stuff." Tom, that's good advice.... ;^) __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

01-15-2005, 10:44 PM	#19
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Steve, The difference is that if you spend $1000 on the right gun. It will be worth $1500-$2000 in just a few years. Junk will always be junk. Lugers are the best investment going. Provided you invest wisely, and get advice. And there is no better place to get that advice, than The Luger Forum and Jan Still's Forum. And read books , books and more books. Learn to know what you are looking at, and looking for. Good luck, Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...