1908 Commercial-Army Luger

Luke · 02-19-2005, 11:13 PM

Would like to communicate directly with anyone who actually owns one of these Lugers. It is an interesting variation.

Would appreciate hearing from anyone with firsthand information on the gun.

Thanks,
Luke

Ron Wood · 02-20-2005, 01:39 AM

Luke,
I own two. One is the Commercial/Military consisting of a 1908 model with no commercial proofs but in the 69000 commercial serial number range with commercial style serial numbering of the small parts. The second is a 1908 model having a chamber date of 1914, with a military serial number 8310a and exposed military style serial numbering of the small parts. Both have unrelieved sear bars and bear the C/X C/X C/X inspection stamps and army test proofs

Herb · 02-20-2005, 01:57 PM

I have what I beleive to be a 1908 model Bulgarian, one of those strange things that has the markings on the chamber and toggles ground off as well as all of the proof and acceptance stamps. It has the old style long sear and is serial numbered in the commercial style #50202, the small parts having 02 on them except fot the side plate which is numbered 264.

Luke · 02-20-2005, 02:56 PM

Ron -

Is it your understanding that the 1908 Commercial Army Lugers were actually manufactured from 1908 commercial Luger parts and then stamped with the triple C/X and the Imperial Eagle ?

Does your 1908 Commercial Army have a holdopen? If so, is it a retrofit?

Luke

Luke · 02-20-2005, 03:00 PM

Herb -

From the serial number of your Bulgarian it appears that it was produced from Commercial Luger parts. Is that your understanding? Were all Bulgarians so manufactured from commercial Luger parts?

Luke

Ron Wood · 02-20-2005, 04:10 PM

Luke,

Given that 1908 Commercial Army Lugers have commercial range serial numbers, the most likely scenario is that 1908 commercial Lugers were taken from production and rerouted to military use, then stamped with the triple C/X and the Imperial Eagle.

My 1908 Commercial Army has the holdopen and it is not a retrofit. The gun is nearly mint. The barrel shows a clear halo around the serial number and it has the army test/acceptance proof.

Herb's Luger would not be a reworked 1908 Bulgarian. The 1908 Bulgarian (actually 1911) contract Lugers were manufactured in two distinct serial number blocks, 1-5000 and 1C-5000C.

All contract Lugers (Bulgarian, Russian, Dutch, Brazilian, Portuguese, etc.) came from non-military (i.e. commercial) production and were assigned their individual contract serial number block.

Luke · 02-20-2005, 05:59 PM

Hi Ron -

I guess the confusion factor for me was that I had always assumed that 1908 commercial Lugers were only manufactured until around 1910. Since we know that the 1908 Commercial Army was manufactured in late 1913 and early 1914 (Still, "Imperial Lugers") I had assumed that there would not be any 1908s to convert for military use in that much later timeframe.

Luke

Dwight Gruber · 02-20-2005, 06:44 PM

Specious supposition deleted.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 02-20-2005, 08:24 PM

I donÃ¢??t think there is any reason to believe production of the 1908 Commercial stopped around 1910. A silly little thing like an impending war would not deter DWM from making a buck or two in the commercial market. Plus, officers were required to purchase their own sidearms so there had to be a source for them to tap. I strongly suspect DWM produced 1908-pattern commercial pieces right up until the time they started cranking out the 1913/14 commercial examples, perhaps even a little beyond. My 1908 Commercial Army is serial numbered 69879. I have a "1913 Commercial" numbered 71247, and a "1914 Commercial" numbered 73650, so you can see that the transition occurred in a very close serial number range. I suspect all three were produced in 1913.

Still in Ã¢??Imperial LugersÃ¢?Â (my favorite volume) indicates in his discussion of the 1908 Commercial Army that there were a few 1914-dated Army Lugers lacking stock lugs that had the same triple C/X inspectorsÃ¢?? marks. I feel very fortunate to have an example of each variation. I looked long and hard to find them. The 1914-dated example came up out of Mexico and has gold Mexican eagle emblems set into each grip. I looked at it in a pawnshop display case for several years (probably 10 or more), but never asked to look at it. Finally one day I was on a break from jury duty so I asked them to take it out of the case. I was dumbfounded to see the 1914 date on a 1908 pattern Luger and the C/X inspectorsÃ¢?? marks. I bought it on the spot. I was tempted to replace the grips until I looked and discovered they were original and numbered to the gun. They still reside on that Luger.

Luke · 02-20-2005, 08:42 PM

I only recently noticed the difference, but the 1914 Commercial Army is not in the same category as the 1914 Army w/o stock lug, although both units were manufactured without stock lugs after the order to add stock lugs was issued in late 1913, and they are both marked with the triple C/X inspection stamps.

"Imperial Lugers" (also my favorite) shows a 1914 DWM, SN8837a on page 42 which appears to be a standard Army Luger, but w/o stock lug. They do have the triple C/X proofs, but they have serial numbers placed in the military convention. Presumably those guns were manufactured in 1914 from frames left over from the 1913 production run, not surprising considering that the order to add stock lugs was issued in late 1913. I have one of these 1914 Army Lugers w/o stock lug, serial number 8754a. It is not in great shape, but it is all original and apparently has never been altered by an earlier collector.

"Imperial Lugers" shows a 1914 Commercial Army on page 55. That Luger has a 5 digit serial number and has the numbers located in the commercial convention. It also bears the triple C/X inspection stamps. I would sure give a lot for one of these ! ! !

Luke

Dwight Gruber · 02-21-2005, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Ron,

Thanks for the serial numbers, and the gentle reminder to exmine the evidence at hand.

Your 1908 Commercial Army #69879 is eight guns away from the highest serial numbered Spy Luger listed in Costanzo's book, #67871 (I assume this gun is a 1906AE, although these designations are not listed in Costanzo). It was recorded as being in the USA in May of 1914, so your 08 Commercial was no doubt made in that time frame.

Your 1914 Commercial #73650 is numbered just before the RG-marked 1914 Military Commercial guns, lowest according to Still is is 74012, made in 1914 ibid. The 1908 RG-marked Military Commercials start near the middle of Costanzo's Spy Luger numbers, guns recorded in the USA in 1913.

I have recanted and deleted my previous message.

--Dwight

MauserLugers · 02-28-2005, 11:08 PM

Luke,
I have a 1908 Commercial Army with the triple X's. Mine is a complet rig with two matching serial numbered wood magazines. Condition is exc plus, about 98-99% overall. Serial Number is 69624. Also have a 1914 Commercial Army, also with two matching wood magazines. This Luger 71812 does not have the triple X's, but is Imperial Army stamped. It is pictured on page 234 of Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers. I also have 74188, a police Luger, pictured on page 235 of the same book. And a 1908 Commercial Police, number 40760, also with two matching magazines. -- Bill

Luke · 03-01-2005, 08:56 AM

Hello Bill -

Thank you for the additional information.

Luke

stallturn · 04-16-2005, 02:58 PM

I have recently bought my very first Luger. It is, I believe, a P08 Commercial-Army model. The Serial Number is 70xxx. It is 7.65 caliber with a 4 inch barrel and in pretty good overall condition (unmatching magazine unfortunately) with 97-98% original finish.

My next objective is to buy a holster for it. Can anyone help with advice? I want to buy one which is contemporary to the pistol and matches it for condition

From this thread, I gather that the pistol must have been made around 1913. I have looked around EBay and see lots of P08 holsters around.

Anyone out there know of a suitable holster for sale or a dealer who might have one?

02-19-2005, 11:13 PM	#1
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	1908 Commercial-Army Luger Would like to communicate directly with anyone who actually owns one of these Lugers. It is an interesting variation. Would appreciate hearing from anyone with firsthand information on the gun. Thanks, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-20-2005, 01:39 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Luke, I own two. One is the Commercial/Military consisting of a 1908 model with no commercial proofs but in the 69000 commercial serial number range with commercial style serial numbering of the small parts. The second is a 1908 model having a chamber date of 1914, with a military serial number 8310a and exposed military style serial numbering of the small parts. Both have unrelieved sear bars and bear the C/X C/X C/X inspection stamps and army test proofs __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-20-2005, 01:57 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have what I beleive to be a 1908 model Bulgarian, one of those strange things that has the markings on the chamber and toggles ground off as well as all of the proof and acceptance stamps. It has the old style long sear and is serial numbered in the commercial style #50202, the small parts having 02 on them except fot the side plate which is numbered 264. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

02-20-2005, 02:56 PM	#4
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Ron - Is it your understanding that the 1908 Commercial Army Lugers were actually manufactured from 1908 commercial Luger parts and then stamped with the triple C/X and the Imperial Eagle ? Does your 1908 Commercial Army have a holdopen? If so, is it a retrofit? Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-20-2005, 08:24 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	I donÃ¢??t think there is any reason to believe production of the 1908 Commercial stopped around 1910. A silly little thing like an impending war would not deter DWM from making a buck or two in the commercial market. Plus, officers were required to purchase their own sidearms so there had to be a source for them to tap. I strongly suspect DWM produced 1908-pattern commercial pieces right up until the time they started cranking out the 1913/14 commercial examples, perhaps even a little beyond. My 1908 Commercial Army is serial numbered 69879. I have a "1913 Commercial" numbered 71247, and a "1914 Commercial" numbered 73650, so you can see that the transition occurred in a very close serial number range. I suspect all three were produced in 1913. Still in Ã¢??Imperial LugersÃ¢?Â (my favorite volume) indicates in his discussion of the 1908 Commercial Army that there were a few 1914-dated Army Lugers lacking stock lugs that had the same triple C/X inspectorsÃ¢?? marks. I feel very fortunate to have an example of each variation. I looked long and hard to find them. The 1914-dated example came up out of Mexico and has gold Mexican eagle emblems set into each grip. I looked at it in a pawnshop display case for several years (probably 10 or more), but never asked to look at it. Finally one day I was on a break from jury duty so I asked them to take it out of the case. I was dumbfounded to see the 1914 date on a 1908 pattern Luger and the C/X inspectorsÃ¢?? marks. I bought it on the spot. I was tempted to replace the grips until I looked and discovered they were original and numbered to the gun. They still reside on that Luger. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-20-2005, 03:00 PM	#5
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Herb - From the serial number of your Bulgarian it appears that it was produced from Commercial Luger parts. Is that your understanding? Were all Bulgarians so manufactured from commercial Luger parts? Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-20-2005, 04:10 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Luke, Given that 1908 Commercial Army Lugers have commercial range serial numbers, the most likely scenario is that 1908 commercial Lugers were taken from production and rerouted to military use, then stamped with the triple C/X and the Imperial Eagle. My 1908 Commercial Army has the holdopen and it is not a retrofit. The gun is nearly mint. The barrel shows a clear halo around the serial number and it has the army test/acceptance proof. Herb's Luger would not be a reworked 1908 Bulgarian. The 1908 Bulgarian (actually 1911) contract Lugers were manufactured in two distinct serial number blocks, 1-5000 and 1C-5000C. All contract Lugers (Bulgarian, Russian, Dutch, Brazilian, Portuguese, etc.) came from non-military (i.e. commercial) production and were assigned their individual contract serial number block. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-20-2005, 05:59 PM	#7
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Hi Ron - I guess the confusion factor for me was that I had always assumed that 1908 commercial Lugers were only manufactured until around 1910. Since we know that the 1908 Commercial Army was manufactured in late 1913 and early 1914 (Still, "Imperial Lugers") I had assumed that there would not be any 1908s to convert for military use in that much later timeframe. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-20-2005, 06:44 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Specious supposition deleted. --Dwight

02-20-2005, 08:42 PM	#10
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	I only recently noticed the difference, but the 1914 Commercial Army is not in the same category as the 1914 Army w/o stock lug, although both units were manufactured without stock lugs after the order to add stock lugs was issued in late 1913, and they are both marked with the triple C/X inspection stamps. "Imperial Lugers" (also my favorite) shows a 1914 DWM, SN8837a on page 42 which appears to be a standard Army Luger, but w/o stock lug. They do have the triple C/X proofs, but they have serial numbers placed in the military convention. Presumably those guns were manufactured in 1914 from frames left over from the 1913 production run, not surprising considering that the order to add stock lugs was issued in late 1913. I have one of these 1914 Army Lugers w/o stock lug, serial number 8754a. It is not in great shape, but it is all original and apparently has never been altered by an earlier collector. "Imperial Lugers" shows a 1914 Commercial Army on page 55. That Luger has a 5 digit serial number and has the numbers located in the commercial convention. It also bears the triple C/X inspection stamps. I would sure give a lot for one of these ! ! ! Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-28-2005, 11:08 PM	#12
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Luke, I have a 1908 Commercial Army with the triple X's. Mine is a complet rig with two matching serial numbered wood magazines. Condition is exc plus, about 98-99% overall. Serial Number is 69624. Also have a 1914 Commercial Army, also with two matching wood magazines. This Luger 71812 does not have the triple X's, but is Imperial Army stamped. It is pictured on page 234 of Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers. I also have 74188, a police Luger, pictured on page 235 of the same book. And a 1908 Commercial Police, number 40760, also with two matching magazines. -- Bill

03-01-2005, 08:56 AM	#13
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Hello Bill - Thank you for the additional information. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

04-16-2005, 02:58 PM	#14
stallturn User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have recently bought my very first Luger. It is, I believe, a P08 Commercial-Army model. The Serial Number is 70xxx. It is 7.65 caliber with a 4 inch barrel and in pretty good overall condition (unmatching magazine unfortunately) with 97-98% original finish. My next objective is to buy a holster for it. Can anyone help with advice? I want to buy one which is contemporary to the pistol and matches it for condition From this thread, I gather that the pistol must have been made around 1913. I have looked around EBay and see lots of P08 holsters around. Anyone out there know of a suitable holster for sale or a dealer who might have one?