1908 Bulgarian is it a shooter?

Mike B · 04-07-2005, 08:05 PM

According to the books I have been studying, I have a 1908 Bulgarian Luger. Although the toggle assembly is mis-matched, it is a correct Bulgarian toggle with a correct extractor. In addition to this replacement, one of the grips has also been replaced. One grip is virtually new and one is completely worn out. Keep in mind that Bulgarian Lugers do not interchange grips with other Lugers because of the lanyard loop. That loop is missing on my Luger, but the holes are there and the grips that are in place do provide clearance for the loop. The Ã¢??DWMÃ¢?Â that is supposed to be over the chamber has been ground off as well as the proof mark on the right side of the receiver. It is my contention that this pistol went to an arsenal in Bulgaria; probably during the second world war. It was refurbished there by replacing the toggle assembly and one grip and probably cleaning. So why was the DWM ground off? Was it an act of defiance against Germany? Has this condition shown up in other Bulgarian Lugers? This Luger has been in my safe for 25 or 30 years and I have always considered it just a mismatched luger. Only recently did I come to the realization that the correct toggle & extractor and correct grips had to have been done by the arsenal and hopefully restored its integrity. I have pictures if needed. My question is am I going down the right track or is this just a shooter? Also, referring to the book Luger Variations by Harry E. Jones, the author states that he knows of only two examples of this variation. Certainly more have been discovered since this printing (1967). Do you know if there is a current estimate of the number of these Bulgarian models are still around? If you would like to see pictures, copy these web addresses onto your browser and the pictures should come up.

http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger.htm
http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger2.htm
http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger3.htm
http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger4.htm
http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger5.htm
Thanks Mike B.

Ron Smith · 04-07-2005, 09:03 PM

Hi Mike,
John Walter's Luger book states that the early contract Bulgarians were marked with the Bulgarian crest over the chamber and on the right forward receiver.These had a DWM marked toggle.
It's possible that this was an early contract Luger that was refurbed by the Bulgarians. And the early crests were ground off the chamber and right side of the receiver. And the DWM toggle was replaced with the Bulgarian Crest marked toggle. This would be a way of preventing having an early crest on the chamber, and a later simplified crest on the toggle. This would explain the grinding on the right receiver. Sort of an updated marking of the pistol. A neat and scarce Luger.
As far as shooting it? I would'nt, unless the toggle was replaced first. I'm guessing that it has respectable value, all things considered. If the toggle cracks, or you break the extractor, you are going to regret it. They would be irreplacable.

Ron

Mike B · 04-07-2005, 10:03 PM

Thanks Ron, for the positive and informative reply. Any idea how many Bulgarian 08's are out there? I really do not want to shoot it, just a term I applied to a mismatched luger. Thanks again, Mike

Heinz · 04-07-2005, 10:08 PM

Ron is correct. There are a number of the later model Bulgarians around, but they are rare. They are also typically in very rough shape unless they have been boosted a bit. They fought in two world wars and all the Slavian conflicts in between.

Don't shoot it. I would leave the griips alone and look for a lanyard loop (even a repro). Holsters are fairly easy to find. I believe TomA will trade a nice Bulgarian holster for two bottles of 15 year old Jefferson Reserve.

George Anderson · 04-08-2005, 11:13 AM

I don't believe the early model theory holds up as those pistols were 1900s and 1906s with grip safeties.

Lugerdoc · 04-08-2005, 12:29 PM

Mike, I recently picked up a large batch or original M1908 Bulgarian grips in a trade. I have a few spare right sides (almost all are stamped with a "2" inspector's mark inside) all well worn in the $10 to $15 range. I also have several sets in the $25 G to $50 VG range. Tom 636-447-3006 for details.

Dwight Gruber · 04-11-2005, 03:02 AM

Mike,

Bulgarian P-08 are commonly found "sanitized" in a manner similar to yours. That is, all the markings which might betray its origin--either as an "Imperial" weapon or an Eastern-bloc weapon--are removed. There are two predominate theories for this: that when Bulgaria was taken over by the Soviets all the markings which betrayed a Monarchial connection were removed; or markings which identified it as a Communist country of origin were removed in order to import it into the US. Each theory has its adherents, and there is insufficient documentation for either. You can find a useful discussion here http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic...erms=bulgarian on Jan Still's Luger collectors' forum.

Theres no telling how your Luger might have come by its stamped toggle train.

These Lugers are scarce, and it appears that yours is sufficiently authentic to take its place in a non-shooting collection.

--Dwight

04-07-2005, 08:05 PM	#1
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	1908 Bulgarian is it a shooter? According to the books I have been studying, I have a 1908 Bulgarian Luger. Although the toggle assembly is mis-matched, it is a correct Bulgarian toggle with a correct extractor. In addition to this replacement, one of the grips has also been replaced. One grip is virtually new and one is completely worn out. Keep in mind that Bulgarian Lugers do not interchange grips with other Lugers because of the lanyard loop. That loop is missing on my Luger, but the holes are there and the grips that are in place do provide clearance for the loop. The Ã¢??DWMÃ¢?Â that is supposed to be over the chamber has been ground off as well as the proof mark on the right side of the receiver. It is my contention that this pistol went to an arsenal in Bulgaria; probably during the second world war. It was refurbished there by replacing the toggle assembly and one grip and probably cleaning. So why was the DWM ground off? Was it an act of defiance against Germany? Has this condition shown up in other Bulgarian Lugers? This Luger has been in my safe for 25 or 30 years and I have always considered it just a mismatched luger. Only recently did I come to the realization that the correct toggle & extractor and correct grips had to have been done by the arsenal and hopefully restored its integrity. I have pictures if needed. My question is am I going down the right track or is this just a shooter? Also, referring to the book Luger Variations by Harry E. Jones, the author states that he knows of only two examples of this variation. Certainly more have been discovered since this printing (1967). Do you know if there is a current estimate of the number of these Bulgarian models are still around? If you would like to see pictures, copy these web addresses onto your browser and the pictures should come up. http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger.htm http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger2.htm http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger3.htm http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger4.htm http://members.aol.com/rmb64mmb/luger5.htm Thanks Mike B.

04-07-2005, 09:03 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Mike, John Walter's Luger book states that the early contract Bulgarians were marked with the Bulgarian crest over the chamber and on the right forward receiver.These had a DWM marked toggle. It's possible that this was an early contract Luger that was refurbed by the Bulgarians. And the early crests were ground off the chamber and right side of the receiver. And the DWM toggle was replaced with the Bulgarian Crest marked toggle. This would be a way of preventing having an early crest on the chamber, and a later simplified crest on the toggle. This would explain the grinding on the right receiver. Sort of an updated marking of the pistol. A neat and scarce Luger. As far as shooting it? I would'nt, unless the toggle was replaced first. I'm guessing that it has respectable value, all things considered. If the toggle cracks, or you break the extractor, you are going to regret it. They would be irreplacable. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-08-2005, 12:29 PM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Mike, I recently picked up a large batch or original M1908 Bulgarian grips in a trade. I have a few spare right sides (almost all are stamped with a "2" inspector's mark inside) all well worn in the $10 to $15 range. I also have several sets in the $25 G to $50 VG range. Tom 636-447-3006 for details. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

04-07-2005, 10:03 PM	#3
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Thanks Ron, for the positive and informative reply. Any idea how many Bulgarian 08's are out there? I really do not want to shoot it, just a term I applied to a mismatched luger. Thanks again, Mike

04-07-2005, 10:08 PM	#4
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Ron is correct. There are a number of the later model Bulgarians around, but they are rare. They are also typically in very rough shape unless they have been boosted a bit. They fought in two world wars and all the Slavian conflicts in between. Don't shoot it. I would leave the griips alone and look for a lanyard loop (even a repro). Holsters are fairly easy to find. I believe TomA will trade a nice Bulgarian holster for two bottles of 15 year old Jefferson Reserve.

04-08-2005, 11:13 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	I don't believe the early model theory holds up as those pistols were 1900s and 1906s with grip safeties.

04-11-2005, 03:02 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Mike, Bulgarian P-08 are commonly found "sanitized" in a manner similar to yours. That is, all the markings which might betray its origin--either as an "Imperial" weapon or an Eastern-bloc weapon--are removed. There are two predominate theories for this: that when Bulgaria was taken over by the Soviets all the markings which betrayed a Monarchial connection were removed; or markings which identified it as a Communist country of origin were removed in order to import it into the US. Each theory has its adherents, and there is insufficient documentation for either. You can find a useful discussion here http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic...erms=bulgarian on Jan Still's Luger collectors' forum. Theres no telling how your Luger might have come by its stamped toggle train. These Lugers are scarce, and it appears that yours is sufficiently authentic to take its place in a non-shooting collection. --Dwight