Circle-S Police Luger Survey

Dwight Gruber · 10-27-2005, 12:26 AM

Circle-S marked Police guns generally get a pretty short shrift, descriptively. Beyond noting that they are, indeed, Police guns, they are usually described as "Simson conversions" and left at that.

After discussing this topic off-Forum with Ed Tinker for awhile, it has become clear that an assessment in detail of these Lugers might be useful to help determine their origin. Commonality of markings might reveal a single source for these pistols, or where they might have been used. Or if there are not common markings, this too might be useful knowledge.

So, I have determined to undertake another survey. If you have a Luger marked with a circle-S on the left receiver, I would like to record details about it. The information I am looking for consists of:

Toggle Mark (logo)

Chamber Date

1920 property mark (yes/no)

Serial number (complete, with suffix)

Right Receiver Marks
(even if they are just Imperial inpector stamps and proofs, this will help determine if the toggle train is original or if it might have been replaced in rework--an Erfurt gun with a DWM toggle, for instance.)

Left receiver marks, if different from c-S and serial number

Circle-S position (in front of serial#, or in back)

Rear frame number (number, if present) (crossed out?)

Barrel Marks--all of them

PT/PTV stamp on barrel (yes/no)

Sear Safety (yes/no)

Magazine Safety (yes/no) (clipped, removed, or active)

Rear Toggle Pin numbererd (yes/no)

Grip Markings

Unit Marks (yes/no) (if yes, the mark itself)

Any other stamps present on gun (e.g. HZa, etc.) and where

Magazine (if matching, base material and markings)

Comments or other characteristics worth noting

When you report markings, particularly if they are unusual ones, a page-number and marking number reference to Costanzo will be useful. If you can't provide it, just the description will do fine.

Please respond on-Forum, or by email [email protected] if you'd rather not make it public here. I am posting this on both Forums, and will be making the request in Auto Mag as well, so it may take a couple months to publish any kind of result.

And no, this doesn't mean I have abandoned my commercial serial# survey--I am still trying to track down Dave Soracco, or the key to his database (in case anybody knows it). Its just that I don't have any new Lugers to post about, so I'll fill time with this until I do.

Thanks in advance to everybody for your assistance and information.

--Dwight

wlyon · 10-27-2005, 12:58 AM

Dwight, You might have this . 1914 Commercial Toggle mark DWM, Chamber date 1920 property date,S/N 72353, Rt rec. none , Lt rec. Horizontal C/N and c-S, Back of C/N, Barrel C/N and serial number, Pt/Ptv No,Sear safety No, Mag safety No, Rear toggle pin numbered, Grip marking none. If you need any more info just ask.

Dwight Gruber · 10-27-2005, 02:55 AM

Bill,

Thanks very much for the extra info.

--Dwight

policeluger · 10-27-2005, 10:34 AM

DG.....just to let you know, I have no Police Lugers with a circle S...did not want you to think I was ignoring you.

Dwight Gruber · 10-27-2005, 11:21 AM

Howard,

Didn't think that for a minute. Surprised, though, at the fact.

--Dwight

policeluger · 10-27-2005, 11:24 AM

I'll work on correcting that....should you come upon a C/S for sale, with at least one match mag let me know.....Simpson's has a nice sneak calling me right now.....best to you

Edward Tinker · 10-31-2005, 11:43 PM

Toggle Mark (logo): DWM

Chamber Date: 1920

1920 property mark (yes/no) Yes

Serial number (complete, with suffix): 2983k

Right Receiver Marks: Ver hard to tell, when rearsenaled, it was pretty much wiped.

Left receiver marks, if different from c-S and serial number: c-S / serial #

Circle-S position (in front of serial#, or in back): In front of serial #

Barrel Marks--all of them: SN k 8,82 and a eagle on top right of barrel

PT/PTV stamp on barrel (yes/no) NO

Sear Safety (yes/no) yes

Magazine Safety (yes/no) none

Rear Toggle Pin numbererd (yes/no) yes and also oversized marked

Grip Markings: Left, S/42 and last two of sn. Right, 83 only

Unit Marks (yes/no) (if yes, the mark itself)

Any other stamps present on gun (e.g. HZa, etc.) and where: Yes, on rear of frame is 1670

Magazine (if matching, base material and markings): not matching, but is a police mag

Comments or other characteristics worth noting: Entire 4-digit serial number on sideplate and on same on toggle adj to DWM,

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 11-01-2005, 01:27 AM

Ed,

Thanks much for the info. Got your PM.

--Dwight

Steinar · 12-14-2005, 06:42 AM

Mr Gruber, I don't have my police luger where I am now.
But quite sure there is no S with circle. The serial is 7057g and I think you have registered it before..

Dwight Gruber · 01-09-2006, 03:58 PM

This survey has been moribund, but got a shot in the arm via email this morning which re-enthused me.

So, I'm requesting again, anybody with a circle-S receiver marked Police Luger, please see the first post in this discussion and let me know what you see, thanks.

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 02-05-2006, 03:39 PM

A few months ago I instituted this survey of circle-S marked Lugers, to discover if there were similarities or marking consistencies which might reveal the origin of this mark; which might help determine whether or not it is a rework mark of Simson, which many collectors assert is the case.

So far I have received only eight submissions. I had hoped that there were more of them out there to examine. While this sampling is not nearly large enough to come to any reliable conclusions, reviewing the data does prompt some interesting observations.

Reported samples range from Imperial military (all DWM), through 1914 Commercial and 1921-dated 20DWM (One is a complete, unaltered DWM LP-08 with matching stock and holster). All but one are 1920 property marked.

All appear to be unaltered from their original manufacture, there are no reported rework parts or markings. None are reported with TP Berlin armory marks. Only half the guns are reported with sear safeties, and only two of these with magazine safeties.

None are reported with Police unit marks, but three of the sear-safety guns are reported with back-frame numbers.

Other data is either sporadic or unreported, and does not conflict with or further these observations.

So far, it appears that the circle-S mark is not associated with a Police rework program (indeed, not associated with any rework program at all); and there are no physical markngs which support a particular Simson connection.

This mystery is not by any means solved, and I look forward to more data submissions.

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 10-02-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wlyon
Dwight, You might have this . 1914 Commercial Toggle mark DWM, Chamber date 1920 property date,S/N 72353, Rt rec. none , Lt rec. Horizontal C/N and c-S, Back of C/N, Barrel C/N and serial number, Pt/Ptv No,Sear safety No, Mag safety No, Rear toggle pin numbered, Grip marking none. If you need any more info just ask.

Bill,

Does this gun have a back-frame number?

--Dwight

wlyon · 10-02-2006, 03:17 PM

Dwight Yes it has an Xed out number 2182 0n the back frame. Bill

Oberleutnant · 02-02-2007, 03:06 PM

Hello Mr. Gruber. I bought last week another Luger ( a Double Date 1917/1920 DWM in mint condition, all numbers matching incl. mag ) and ir has a circle-s. Do you have a clue, what it means? Please take a look at the pic. Greetings from Germany, Thomas

Pete Ebbink · 02-02-2007, 03:24 PM

In addition to the discussion in this topic, folks over on Jan Still's Gun Boards have been running a similar discussion with a few more ideas there as well :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2763

Dwight Gruber · 02-02-2007, 03:50 PM

Thomas,

Greetings from the US, and thanks for the picture. No, at this point the c-S meaning is obscure. It does seem to be limited to before 1922, it does not appear to have any connection with Simson, and it has a strong correlation with back-frame numbered Lugers. Keep looking here, around the end of the month I will have an article to post about this topic which will have more details, if not an actual answer to the mystery.

In the meantime, for my research, could you please look at the first post in this discussion, and provide the information which you did not mention in your post? I will be very appreciative.

--Dwight

Oberleutnant · 02-03-2007, 01:22 PM

Dwight,

here are the informations about my c-s Luger:

Toggle Mark (logo): DWM
Chamber Date: 1917 / 1920
1920 proberty Mark: Yes
SN with suffix: 5977 h
Right Receiver Marks: 3 x Imperial Marks 1 x Weimar Mark
Left Receiver Marks if diff.: No
C-S Position: In front of SN
Rear frame number: None
Barrel Marks: SN 5977, Imperial Mark, 8,82
PT/PTV stamp on barrel: No
Sear Safety: No
Magazine Safety: Yes
Grip Markings: Imperial Mark and 77 on both Grips
Unit Marks: None
Any other stamps: No
Magazin: Is matching, Imperial Mark and 5977

So, I hope that will help. If you need further informations, no problem.
By the way, Prize was 680 Euro.
Kind regards, Thomas

Dwight Gruber · 02-03-2007, 01:58 PM

Thomas,

Thanks very much for your information, and I appreciate the offer of more.

Could you please confirm that this gun has a magazine safety? It does not appear so from your picture, and it would be very unusual for a Luger to have a mag safety but no sear safety. Is it possible that the receiver was drilled and the trigger plate was cut for the sear safety, but the safety itself was removed?

Also, is it possible for you to post a closeup picture of the left side of the receiver for the c-S mark, and the right side fot the Weimar mark?

Thanks for the additional help. I don't know what Luger prices are like in Germany, but equivalent $880 USD for a matching Luger with original grips and matching mag, even if reblued, is a pretty good deal here.

--Dwight

Oberleutnant · 02-03-2007, 02:57 PM

Dwight,

you are right, it was my fault. It has NO MAGAZINE SAFETY!!!! Iam sorry for the confusion, but Iam at work, doing three things at the same time and answering an e-mail. I send you the pics as soon as possible.

Thomas

SteveM · 06-03-2007, 05:49 PM

Dwight,

If you haven't seen this one yet...

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=73290378

10-27-2005, 12:26 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Circle-S Police Luger Survey Circle-S marked Police guns generally get a pretty short shrift, descriptively. Beyond noting that they are, indeed, Police guns, they are usually described as "Simson conversions" and left at that. After discussing this topic off-Forum with Ed Tinker for awhile, it has become clear that an assessment in detail of these Lugers might be useful to help determine their origin. Commonality of markings might reveal a single source for these pistols, or where they might have been used. Or if there are not common markings, this too might be useful knowledge. So, I have determined to undertake another survey. If you have a Luger marked with a circle-S on the left receiver, I would like to record details about it. The information I am looking for consists of: Toggle Mark (logo) Chamber Date 1920 property mark (yes/no) Serial number (complete, with suffix) Right Receiver Marks (even if they are just Imperial inpector stamps and proofs, this will help determine if the toggle train is original or if it might have been replaced in rework--an Erfurt gun with a DWM toggle, for instance.) Left receiver marks, if different from c-S and serial number Circle-S position (in front of serial#, or in back) Rear frame number (number, if present) (crossed out?) Barrel Marks--all of them PT/PTV stamp on barrel (yes/no) Sear Safety (yes/no) Magazine Safety (yes/no) (clipped, removed, or active) Rear Toggle Pin numbererd (yes/no) Grip Markings Unit Marks (yes/no) (if yes, the mark itself) Any other stamps present on gun (e.g. HZa, etc.) and where Magazine (if matching, base material and markings) Comments or other characteristics worth noting When you report markings, particularly if they are unusual ones, a page-number and marking number reference to Costanzo will be useful. If you can't provide it, just the description will do fine. Please respond on-Forum, or by email [email protected] if you'd rather not make it public here. I am posting this on both Forums, and will be making the request in Auto Mag as well, so it may take a couple months to publish any kind of result. And no, this doesn't mean I have abandoned my commercial serial# survey--I am still trying to track down Dave Soracco, or the key to his database (in case anybody knows it). Its just that I don't have any new Lugers to post about, so I'll fill time with this until I do. Thanks in advance to everybody for your assistance and information. --Dwight Last edited by Dwight Gruber; 02-26-2010 at 08:21 PM. Reason: email contact changed

10-27-2005, 12:58 AM	#2
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,637 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,561 Times in 956 Posts	Dwight, You might have this . 1914 Commercial Toggle mark DWM, Chamber date 1920 property date,S/N 72353, Rt rec. none , Lt rec. Horizontal C/N and c-S, Back of C/N, Barrel C/N and serial number, Pt/Ptv No,Sear safety No, Mag safety No, Rear toggle pin numbered, Grip marking none. If you need any more info just ask. __________________ Bill Lyon

10-31-2005, 11:43 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Toggle Mark (logo): DWM Chamber Date: 1920 1920 property mark (yes/no) Yes Serial number (complete, with suffix): 2983k Right Receiver Marks: Ver hard to tell, when rearsenaled, it was pretty much wiped. Left receiver marks, if different from c-S and serial number: c-S / serial # Circle-S position (in front of serial#, or in back): In front of serial # Barrel Marks--all of them: SN k 8,82 and a eagle on top right of barrel PT/PTV stamp on barrel (yes/no) NO Sear Safety (yes/no) yes Magazine Safety (yes/no) none Rear Toggle Pin numbererd (yes/no) yes and also oversized marked Grip Markings: Left, S/42 and last two of sn. Right, 83 only Unit Marks (yes/no) (if yes, the mark itself) Any other stamps present on gun (e.g. HZa, etc.) and where: Yes, on rear of frame is 1670 Magazine (if matching, base material and markings): not matching, but is a police mag Comments or other characteristics worth noting: Entire 4-digit serial number on sideplate and on same on toggle adj to DWM, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-14-2005, 06:42 AM	#9
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Mr Gruber, I don't have my police luger where I am now. But quite sure there is no S with circle. The serial is 7057g and I think you have registered it before.. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

10-02-2006, 03:17 PM	#13
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,637 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,561 Times in 956 Posts	Dwight Yes it has an Xed out number 2182 0n the back frame. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

10-27-2005, 02:55 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Bill, Thanks very much for the extra info. --Dwight

10-27-2005, 10:34 AM	#4
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	DG.....just to let you know, I have no Police Lugers with a circle S...did not want you to think I was ignoring you.

10-27-2005, 11:21 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Howard, Didn't think that for a minute. Surprised, though, at the fact. --Dwight

10-27-2005, 11:24 AM	#6
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I'll work on correcting that....should you come upon a C/S for sale, with at least one match mag let me know.....Simpson's has a nice sneak calling me right now.....best to you

11-01-2005, 01:27 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Ed, Thanks much for the info. Got your PM. --Dwight

01-09-2006, 03:58 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	This survey has been moribund, but got a shot in the arm via email this morning which re-enthused me. So, I'm requesting again, anybody with a circle-S receiver marked Police Luger, please see the first post in this discussion and let me know what you see, thanks. --Dwight

02-05-2006, 03:39 PM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	A few months ago I instituted this survey of circle-S marked Lugers, to discover if there were similarities or marking consistencies which might reveal the origin of this mark; which might help determine whether or not it is a rework mark of Simson, which many collectors assert is the case. So far I have received only eight submissions. I had hoped that there were more of them out there to examine. While this sampling is not nearly large enough to come to any reliable conclusions, reviewing the data does prompt some interesting observations. Reported samples range from Imperial military (all DWM), through 1914 Commercial and 1921-dated 20DWM (One is a complete, unaltered DWM LP-08 with matching stock and holster). All but one are 1920 property marked. All appear to be unaltered from their original manufacture, there are no reported rework parts or markings. None are reported with TP Berlin armory marks. Only half the guns are reported with sear safeties, and only two of these with magazine safeties. None are reported with Police unit marks, but three of the sear-safety guns are reported with back-frame numbers. Other data is either sporadic or unreported, and does not conflict with or further these observations. So far, it appears that the circle-S mark is not associated with a Police rework program (indeed, not associated with any rework program at all); and there are no physical markngs which support a particular Simson connection. This mystery is not by any means solved, and I look forward to more data submissions. --Dwight

02-02-2007, 03:06 PM	#14
Oberleutnant User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rhineland, Germany Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Mr. Gruber. I bought last week another Luger ( a Double Date 1917/1920 DWM in mint condition, all numbers matching incl. mag ) and ir has a circle-s. Do you have a clue, what it means? Please take a look at the pic. Greetings from Germany, Thomas Attached Images __________________ 4. FallschirmjÃ?Â¤gerbataillon 263 Honor et Virtus

02-02-2007, 03:24 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	In addition to the discussion in this topic, folks over on Jan Still's Gun Boards have been running a similar discussion with a few more ideas there as well : http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2763

02-02-2007, 03:50 PM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Thomas, Greetings from the US, and thanks for the picture. No, at this point the c-S meaning is obscure. It does seem to be limited to before 1922, it does not appear to have any connection with Simson, and it has a strong correlation with back-frame numbered Lugers. Keep looking here, around the end of the month I will have an article to post about this topic which will have more details, if not an actual answer to the mystery. In the meantime, for my research, could you please look at the first post in this discussion, and provide the information which you did not mention in your post? I will be very appreciative. --Dwight

02-03-2007, 01:22 PM	#17
Oberleutnant User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rhineland, Germany Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, here are the informations about my c-s Luger: Toggle Mark (logo): DWM Chamber Date: 1917 / 1920 1920 proberty Mark: Yes SN with suffix: 5977 h Right Receiver Marks: 3 x Imperial Marks 1 x Weimar Mark Left Receiver Marks if diff.: No C-S Position: In front of SN Rear frame number: None Barrel Marks: SN 5977, Imperial Mark, 8,82 PT/PTV stamp on barrel: No Sear Safety: No Magazine Safety: Yes Grip Markings: Imperial Mark and 77 on both Grips Unit Marks: None Any other stamps: No Magazin: Is matching, Imperial Mark and 5977 So, I hope that will help. If you need further informations, no problem. By the way, Prize was 680 Euro. Kind regards, Thomas Attached Images __________________ 4. FallschirmjÃ?Â¤gerbataillon 263 Honor et Virtus

02-03-2007, 01:58 PM	#18
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Thomas, Thanks very much for your information, and I appreciate the offer of more. Could you please confirm that this gun has a magazine safety? It does not appear so from your picture, and it would be very unusual for a Luger to have a mag safety but no sear safety. Is it possible that the receiver was drilled and the trigger plate was cut for the sear safety, but the safety itself was removed? Also, is it possible for you to post a closeup picture of the left side of the receiver for the c-S mark, and the right side fot the Weimar mark? Thanks for the additional help. I don't know what Luger prices are like in Germany, but equivalent $880 USD for a matching Luger with original grips and matching mag, even if reblued, is a pretty good deal here. --Dwight

02-03-2007, 02:57 PM	#19
Oberleutnant User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Rhineland, Germany Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, you are right, it was my fault. It has NO MAGAZINE SAFETY!!!! Iam sorry for the confusion, but Iam at work, doing three things at the same time and answering an e-mail. I send you the pics as soon as possible. Thomas __________________ 4. FallschirmjÃ?Â¤gerbataillon 263 Honor et Virtus

06-03-2007, 05:49 PM	#20
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Dwight, If you haven't seen this one yet... http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=73290378