Lugers...Why?

I wonder what makes us all share the fondness for this particular firearm. Its allure has driven some of us to heated debate. Is it the aristocratic aesthetics? Is it the appeal of the grip angle? Is it the unique "toggle" mechanism? Maybe it is the mystique and history through two world wars? Whatever the case is I find it hard to believe people at my range simply look upon it as just another firearm. Old or new, stainless steel or blue, the Luger is as much an instrument of warfare as it is of elegance. Luger owners of the world rejoice!!!!

[William Reese]

My first Luger was a toy gun under the christmas tree when I was a youngster. I was fascinated by it in the christmas catalog and Santa Claus obliged. It was a 007 luger with barrel extension and German helmet, got plenty of dirty looks at a family reunion by my uncle who was in Italy during WWII. He one of three men out of his battalion that survived. He is still alive and has a P-38 bringback, I'll have to get the story on it. Does anybody remember the toy, I'm about 48 and wouldn't mind seeing a picture of it again!

[Hugh]

I had a solid cast aluminum one that was my favorite, even liked it better than the six shooter cap pistols when playing "cowboy".

[Charlie]

The fascination of the Luger to most of us is that for generations of Americans who participated in two world wars against Germany, it represents a symbol of a formidable, but conquered enemy. The Luger has come to bear a sinister, almost forbidden connotation, as is often evidenced by its use in films, novels, and plays by the villain, and never by the "good guy." Owning a Luger imparts a sense of victory over evil, and fondling and shooting one just emphasizes that feeling.

[Johnny Peppers]

Not all Lugers went to war, and the most collectible probably never fired a shot in anger.

You only have to take a look through "Luger:The Multi-National Pistol to get an idea as to why the Luger is so collectible. The variations produced over it's lifespan are virtually endless. If there had only been one Luger model from start to finish, the pistol would not have the popularity that it enjoys.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

TO me it's simply the best made pistol ever put into massproduction. THere is no gun coming near the mechanical quality and inovations that the luger have and no gun that ever will.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Johnny


I agree that Browning is one of the best firearmsdesigners of all time.

But the true reason why Lugers not are popular for competition is simply because it's the most missunderstod pistol of all time.

People don't belive that it will work, when I cones to competitions with my gun some people just smile.

But I very rarely have a missfire or any problems at all.


The 1911 is more sturdy, fits better for combat than a luger do.

But the Luger gets a better triggerpull, at least as good accuracy, faster ignation time, better gripangle and lower barrelline than any other competitive gun.

I do find the balance and the weight to low and therefor am I using targetbarrels.

My results rised considerably when I switshed from using a custom 1911 to my custom luger for competition.

I do also have a SIG P210 in my cabinet, but never gained very good results with it due to its straigt gripangle.


An interesting note with the differnece of a targetluger from all other guns that i have fired is the following.

WHen I fires a 1911 often I feel that i did a bad squese off with the trigger, and when i look at the target often there is a bad hole.

But the same things happends with the targetluger exept that the hole aint sitting in the wrong place.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

I think most of us are fascinated by the dark and somewhat sinster history of this weapon. Funny thing, lugers are nothing special to most Germans. It just another pistol to them. Moreover, most old time German military men think the P-38 was far superior to the luger as a combat weapon. Maybe what was said early is true, This gun is symbolic of the two great conflicts of the 20th Century - Something we are struggling to remember so we don't go through it again. And something the Germans would just as soon forget.

The first Luger I had was a plastic toy cap pistol in the late 70s. My friend thinking the toggle mechanism was complex started talikng into it the way Maxwell Smart talked into shoe phone after pulling back the toggle of course! Well best wishes to all Luger owners and best thoughts to Hakan who in reality knows more about guns through working on them as I ever will. My apologies for our recent bout. Americans, right or wrong, take remarks personally about their prized possessions. People get into fights here for insulting each others cars, favorite sports teams, even clothing. i'ts not logical in fact its petty but its very typical.

[Johnny Peppers]

If you have never experienced a 1911 with a proper match tuned trigger, you have no experience with which to compare it to another pistol. The simple design of the 1911 trigger has the added benefit of the disconnector which the Luger lacks. The .38 Special Clark LHS that I owned had a 2# trigger pull, and a gunsmith that shoots at our range has a 70 Series Colt taken down to 1.75#. I will admit that this is really too light for me as I like to get the proper feel of the trigger before it breaks. At 1.75# the Luger would go into full auto mode due to the lack of any type of disconnecting device.

The added beauty of the 1911 design is that it lends itself to so many adaptations of the shooting sport. I love to collect and study the Luger, but I love to collect as well as shoot the 1911 as there are new models of this tried and true veteran coming out every day. Ever shot a Les Baer?

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Yes

I have acutally built around 20-30 1911 customguns.

A number of them I have built on les baer parts.

I have also rebuilt both Clark and Les Baer customguns to dissatisfied customers.

I have experienced and tuned many 1911 triggerpulls really good, but a luger or a SIG P210 finely tuned triggerpull gets much better.

Please have a look at this side and look on some of the guns.

The hardchromed 9mm 1911 you see there shoot 5 rounds on less than 1/2" at 25 meters.

http://www.vapensmedjan.com/pic%20gallery.htm

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com/pic%20gallery.htm

[Johnny Peppers]

A 1911 trigger only has to work in one direction. The Luger trigger must pull down on a lever that then moves sideways to press on another lever which must swivel sideways again to release the firing pin, and in all this monkey motion there is no type of safety device. Any time that mechanical motion has to change directions it loses efficiency. This is very true on the Luger trigger. It worked very well for a combat weapon, but was never intended for serious competition work. I have a box stock Ruger Mk I that was bought through the the DCM in 1967 for $14.50 that will shoot 1/2" groups out of the Ransom Rest at 25 yards, so that is no great feat.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

All parts in a Luger triggerpull is pivoting, while parts in a 1911 is sliding.

There is much less friction in pivoting parts than there is in sliding.

I do actually not belive you have felt on any well adjusted SIG P210 or Luger triggerpull.


THe thing that makes the luger and SIG triggerpulls so great is that when the gun cycles the searengagement is 0,5-1mm (.02-.04"). But when you come to the second stage in the triggerpull the searengement is close to 0.05mm (0.002") and there will be no creep at all.


At a 1911 you must have minimum 0,4 mm (0,016")searengement to have a safe triggerpull, if you have less the hammer will be likely to fall or even fires full auto.

The big searengement on the 1911 restricts the possibliitys of a heavy firststage at the triggerpull while this feature is fully possible on the luger and the SIG.


Just so you know it Johnny it's only in the US that 1911 are extremely popular for targetshooting.

In many countris like Switserland, Germany, Sweden the SIG P210 is the most popular gun and there is prob�¡bly around 200 SIG pistols on each 1911.


1/2" accuracy is very good out of a handgun, and its far better than any shooter ever can use.


I think you should have a look at some good sigs or lugers before you continue this discussion.


Best Regards HÃ?Â¥kan





http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Johnny


I am not arguing aginst you that the 1911 can be made to a wonderfull targetgun with a wonderfull triggerpull.

There is really no discussion about that.


I am just simply stating that the Luger have better target features.


Another wonderfull thing with the luger is that you don't have to switch every single part out when making it to a targetgun like you have to do with a 1911.


REgards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Johnny Peppers]

At the same time as the September Jackson, Mississippi, gun show, the International competition for PPC is held that same week. Many of the shooters from all over the world come to this competition. To my knowledge a Luger has never shown up on the firing line, but if it ever does, and should it win, I will be expecting a John Deere tractor to win the Indianapolis 500.

As far as to looking at any good Sigs or Lugers, if any that are worth using in true competition ever show up, please let me know. That goes for about 100,000 other US shooters also.

I have some very nice collectible Lugers, and I seek others in the same condition, but I collect them for what they are and not what they can be cannibalized into. If it is for serious shooting, the 1911 cannot be beat.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Johnny


If you had knew a little bit about competition shooting you would have knew that the guns anatomicacal fit to the actual shooter is of extreme importance.

One shooter would never get a serius result with a luger but would maybe put a world record with a custom 1911.

But the next shooter really needs the bent gripangle.


You can really see this differnace when it comes to .22 and .32 guns.

There is people putting worldrecords with the H�¤mmerli 208 with it's extremely straigt gripangle and others who not can get any decent result at all with the 208.


And as I stated earlyer the 1911 is only the popularest centerfire targetpistol in the USA.


It's funny to look at at custom 1911 pistol, how many original parts is still inside that gun?

Just a handfull.

Slide, frame, maybe the gripscrews and some pins and the slidstop.

THe barrel is useless and can not even hit the black spot in the target, a match barrel is needed.

The triggerparts is ta bad to be used, so those are swopped.

Interesting to see that Colt have produced that pistol for 90 years without making any improvemnt worth the name.

Not even their Gold Cup can be considered a targetgun, its just expenive at no reasons.


Many big competitions have been won by stock SIG P210's.

All parts in those guns including the military guns is of matchquality.

Same with the luger, only reasons why i swopp the barrels it because the balance is too bad, but the accuracy suffers nothing in the original barrels.

Both guns have only one really serius problem and that is the sights.


LAST of all Johnny

The guns I rebuild for targetpurposes is already shooterlugers.

They have often been fitted with finnish SAKO or Tikka barrels or suffers in other ways to ever been considerd as collector pieces.


Why don't you just borrow a SIG P210 targetpistol and go to the range and test it out.

You'r opinions are what they are just because of you'r lack of experince.


By the way, how many points go you get in PPC 1500 open pistol?


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

[Johnny Peppers]

Did you ever stop to think that the reason so many parts are changed out on a 1911 is because it is a mini industry here making aftermarket parts for the pistol due to it's popularity. Most of the parts are cosmetic and have nothing with the ability of the pistol to shoot any better. Where would one go to find aftermarket parts for a Luger? There is just no demand for aftermarket parts for the Luger as it has never been taken seriously as a competition pistol. A set of springs and you have just about exhausted your search. Jim Clark built world class pistols and only bought barrels, sights, and bushings for his pistols. The Army AMU teams built fantastically accurate pistols from regular GI 45's and only bought sights from outside sources. All the add-ons are just bells and whistles.

Just how do you know how much I know about competition shooting? When we moved to our new home three years ago I gave away two large boxes of trophys won in competitive shooting, and still have a drawer full of medals. It appears that you cannot continue this discussion without trying to attack me about things you have absolutely no knowledge of. As this discussion, and not an argument as you put it, seems to be going downhill by trying to use my character to prove a point that doesn't exist, you have the stage all to yourself now. Knock yourself out.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Johnny you have continusly attacing my statements that SIG P210's and Lugers make fine targetpistols.

Just because America never have understod any other pistols that the 1911 doesent mean there is nothing else.


I still think you should have alook and give the others a try becuase you have not a clue what you are talking about.

All records here is set by the P210.


Our normal 25 meter record is 488 out of 500 at 25 meters at a 25 meter international target.

That is set with a SIG P210 in 30 luger.


Go and get yourself some experince by the otherguns before we contiune this thread.

Why do you think I have those opinions? I make my living out of centerfire targetpistols.


There is simply no chanse to get you to understand that anything else than a american gun would work.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com