1906 American Eagle 9mm

Edward Tinker · 06-07-2006, 08:40 PM

This is a 1906 American Eagle, 9mm that I got today. I was looking at some things on ebay and saw this in the background. I asked him about it and he said it was for sale. I paid what I thought was a bit high, but I didn't have one of these. I was afraid it was rebuled, but after getting it today I can see it is all original. The grips are poor in the rear by the grip safety, but I think period?

I realize it is not pristine, but I will keep it.

The firing pin is unmarked and unfluted.

The numbers are all matching, and the barrel is slightly pitted, but has plenty of rifling.

Opinions?

Sorry for the bad pictures...

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 06-07-2006, 09:56 PM

Ed, my man...

Nice looking honest piece.

The barrel has what looks like the circle/B Brazilian contract proof just under the serial number. Maybe left-over barrel stock from that contract run.

This is a bit odd as I thought all Brazilian pieces were 4-3/4" barrels in 7,65 mm...???

Mike B · 06-07-2006, 10:00 PM

Ed,
Is it really that color? I feel that I am the resident expert on '06 9mm AE Lugers. (Just kidding of course). I have been looking for one for a very long time. I have studied what seems like hundreds, looking for a BUG proof with no luck. Is the magazine marked with the "Cal 9" stamping?

Mike

Dwight Gruber · 06-07-2006, 10:01 PM

Ed,

Very cool. It looks like the grips were cut out in an attempt to fit an Ideal stock/holster.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 06-07-2006, 10:08 PM

Ed, Pete:
The circle B marking caught my eye also. You are correct Pete that the Brazilian Lugers are 7.65mm. Up until now I have seen/heard about a number of American Eagle Lugers with the circle B marking and they all were 7.65mm guns, so I naturally assumed that the barrels were were over-runs on the Brazilian contract and DWM just used up the stock. This one in 9mm changes all that and points to an inspector using that die for an inspection/approval mark. As to what he was inspecting/approving is anybody's guess. Verrry interrresting.

Nice gun Ed. 9mm American Eagles are a tough gun to find. Glad you got one. Those are odd cuts on the grips. As Dwight noted, they look like they were made to accommodate an Ideal holster, but in their current configuration, they would not be adaptable to the metal grip backing. Another enigma!

Edward Tinker · 06-07-2006, 10:14 PM

Mike, she is much more of a normal color, my camera takes lousy inside pictures and it is raining all week here in New Hampshire

The magazine is a period wood bottom, nickle body, non-matching sn 7537 k or something, and crown something...

I had no clue about the circle B.... To prove my point and be right, I went to Kittery's and bought some 9mm snap cap cartridges and they fit just fine in the chamber.

I didn't realize that 9mm AE's were scarce... I thought I paid too much, as it was $1320 for gun and shipping...

Also, Ron, in person there is halo's in the right places...

About what year would a beastie like this have been made? (I already asked Dwight his opinion

)

Why isn't there ANY proofs on it? Or is the circle B a proof?

Ed

Mike B · 06-07-2006, 10:27 PM

Ed,
$1320 for gun and shipping! I thought I had really accomplished something when I talked someone down from $3500 to $2850 and then decided to wait for a BUG proof. Congratulations on a great find.

Mike

Edward Tinker · 06-07-2006, 11:02 PM

Interesting (at least for me)

It is not safety marked, but says loaded. normal I presume?

Ron Wood · 06-07-2006, 11:34 PM

Don't give it a second thought. 1906s are not safety marked, but the extractor is marked "LOADED". The lack of proofs is also perfectly OK. I assume the front of the frame is marked "GERMANY" under the serial number. If it is, it is a textbook 1906 9mm American Eagle...except for that circle B inspector's mark. Only the folks at DWM know how that came about and they are all dead.

(Someone is going to take me to task on the "1906s are not safety marked" since some of the very early ones in the 25-26000 range were GESICHERT marked, but they are scarce and out of the norm)

Edward Tinker · 06-07-2006, 11:45 PM

yes Ron, it is marked Germany on the front of the frame. Looks like I scored ok

John Sabato · 06-08-2006, 12:54 AM

Wow, all I can say is Congrats Ed... it is a nice old girl you got your arm around!

ViggoG · 06-08-2006, 02:37 AM

Based on my one experience with an Ideal Stock.
I would guess that someone in the past, Had an Ideal Stock and no Ideal Grips and modified these grips to allow the 06 AE to be held tightly to the Stock Claws and fired.
A bit clumsy but certainly can be effective.
If this were done to other than the 02 to 06 AE models a person could get into trouble by having a pistol adapted for use on a stock, that is provided he had a suitable stock. ( My Opinion )
As I read the law it appears to be big trouble for one to adapt a P-08 to the Ideal Stock.
ViggoG

Dwight Gruber · 06-08-2006, 03:21 AM

So far no one has noted the Swiss trigger plate...

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 06-08-2006, 08:29 AM

Dwight, I know you told me that off-line, I have trouble figuring that stuff out for some reason.

The side plate is marked 93 (the last two of the serial number), hidden style, as is the rest of the gun.

Ed

Ron Wood · 06-08-2006, 10:07 AM

Dwight,
I guess it is like looking for a dropped penny and tripping over a big rock you didn't see. Sometimes focus obscures the obvious. So, this Luger possesses more than one enigma. Strike the remark about textbook. I think I will go try to find something to season my plate of crow.

Edward Tinker · 06-08-2006, 10:20 AM

Ron/Dwight, guess I will take better pictures of the sideplate, it looks fine to me...

A lucky find to match the serial number? A re-stamping of the serial number?

Anything I should look at closer on it?

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 06-08-2006, 12:48 PM

Ron,

Not to worry, I did the same thing a couple days ago in email, missed an entire toggle train mismatch, Ed knows!

Ed,

Check the comparison here:

--Dwight

Aaron · 06-08-2006, 04:46 PM

Ed, it appears that the photos were taken under ordinary household tungsten light, resulting in incorrect warm colors. You need to set your camera for tungsten light and it should correct the colors automatically. Your camera manual should tell you how to do this.

Edward Tinker · 06-08-2006, 04:59 PM

thanks Aaron, will try that, and also without wine coolers too

this particular camera takes very nice outdoor shots or with good light, i have had very poor success with it on in-door shots....

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 06-08-2006, 05:16 PM

Ed,

Regarding when this gun was made, I have taken the time to look a little more closely into the serial number data and some information in Imperial Lugers.

The order to formally adopt the 1908-model Parabellum as the issue pistol for the German Imperial Army was signed in August, 1908; the actual contract with DWM was December, 1908. Thus, the vast majority of 1908 First Issue pistols must have been made in 1909.

In interpreting commercial serial number data, I have taken as an axiom that commercial versions of a military variation would have been introduced roughly contemporaneously--certainly not before, and likely not very much after. The first 1908 Commercial I have recorded is sn39142--the odds are slim that it was made in the final weeks of 1908 when DWM was beginning to fulfill their first Army contract, but it is possible..

According to the French Gazette des Armes #370 model 1906 Parabellum were first made available in the Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne catalog in 1909; the first of these guns I have in the database is sn45425.

This corrollary evidence suggests that your 1906AE 9mm sn44693 was made early in 1909.

Regarding the circle-B stamp on the barrel, I record five examples from sn45844 to sn48900, all but the last (a Swiss commercial) American Eagles and all in .30. The Brazilian contract was fulfilled between 1907 and 1911, so these could very well be taken from acceptance parts in the same manner as the Swiss cross marked 1900AE examples.

Walter (The Luger Book) notes that Brazilian guns are hard-used and sometimes found rebarrelled to 9mm. Kenyon (Lugers At Random) asserts that some of the 9mm examples "may" be of original manufacture. (This seems to me like a stretch...) However, one wonders, might this barrel provide evidence of original-manufactured 9mm Brazilian Lugers? or, where and when did Brazil get 9mm replacement barrels and, if from DWM, might they have been inspected during manufacture?

These are WAQuestions only, until someone comes up with supporting or contrary evidence.

--Dwight

06-07-2006, 08:40 PM	#1
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	1906 American Eagle 9mm This is a 1906 American Eagle, 9mm that I got today. I was looking at some things on ebay and saw this in the background. I asked him about it and he said it was for sale. I paid what I thought was a bit high, but I didn't have one of these. I was afraid it was rebuled, but after getting it today I can see it is all original. The grips are poor in the rear by the grip safety, but I think period? I realize it is not pristine, but I will keep it. The firing pin is unmarked and unfluted. The numbers are all matching, and the barrel is slightly pitted, but has plenty of rifling. Opinions? Sorry for the bad pictures... Ed

06-07-2006, 10:08 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Ed, Pete: The circle B marking caught my eye also. You are correct Pete that the Brazilian Lugers are 7.65mm. Up until now I have seen/heard about a number of American Eagle Lugers with the circle B marking and they all were 7.65mm guns, so I naturally assumed that the barrels were were over-runs on the Brazilian contract and DWM just used up the stock. This one in 9mm changes all that and points to an inspector using that die for an inspection/approval mark. As to what he was inspecting/approving is anybody's guess. Verrry interrresting. Nice gun Ed. 9mm American Eagles are a tough gun to find. Glad you got one. Those are odd cuts on the grips. As Dwight noted, they look like they were made to accommodate an Ideal holster, but in their current configuration, they would not be adaptable to the metal grip backing. Another enigma! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-07-2006, 11:34 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Don't give it a second thought. 1906s are not safety marked, but the extractor is marked "LOADED". The lack of proofs is also perfectly OK. I assume the front of the frame is marked "GERMANY" under the serial number. If it is, it is a textbook 1906 9mm American Eagle...except for that circle B inspector's mark. Only the folks at DWM know how that came about and they are all dead. (Someone is going to take me to task on the "1906s are not safety marked" since some of the very early ones in the 25-26000 range were GESICHERT marked, but they are scarce and out of the norm) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-08-2006, 12:54 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Wow, all I can say is Congrats Ed... it is a nice old girl you got your arm around! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-08-2006, 02:37 AM	#12
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Congratulations Ed. !! Based on my one experience with an Ideal Stock. I would guess that someone in the past, Had an Ideal Stock and no Ideal Grips and modified these grips to allow the 06 AE to be held tightly to the Stock Claws and fired. A bit clumsy but certainly can be effective. If this were done to other than the 02 to 06 AE models a person could get into trouble by having a pistol adapted for use on a stock, that is provided he had a suitable stock. ( My Opinion ) As I read the law it appears to be big trouble for one to adapt a P-08 to the Ideal Stock. ViggoG

06-07-2006, 09:56 PM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Ed, my man... Nice looking honest piece. The barrel has what looks like the circle/B Brazilian contract proof just under the serial number. Maybe left-over barrel stock from that contract run. This is a bit odd as I thought all Brazilian pieces were 4-3/4" barrels in 7,65 mm...???

06-07-2006, 10:00 PM	#3
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Ed, Is it really that color? I feel that I am the resident expert on '06 9mm AE Lugers. (Just kidding of course). I have been looking for one for a very long time. I have studied what seems like hundreds, looking for a BUG proof with no luck. Is the magazine marked with the "Cal 9" stamping? Mike

06-07-2006, 10:01 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Ed, Very cool. It looks like the grips were cut out in an attempt to fit an Ideal stock/holster. --Dwight

06-07-2006, 10:14 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Mike, she is much more of a normal color, my camera takes lousy inside pictures and it is raining all week here in New Hampshire The magazine is a period wood bottom, nickle body, non-matching sn 7537 k or something, and crown something... I had no clue about the circle B.... To prove my point and be right, I went to Kittery's and bought some 9mm snap cap cartridges and they fit just fine in the chamber. I didn't realize that 9mm AE's were scarce... I thought I paid too much, as it was $1320 for gun and shipping... Also, Ron, in person there is halo's in the right places... About what year would a beastie like this have been made? (I already asked Dwight his opinion ) Why isn't there ANY proofs on it? Or is the circle B a proof? Ed

06-07-2006, 10:27 PM	#7
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Ed, $1320 for gun and shipping! I thought I had really accomplished something when I talked someone down from $3500 to $2850 and then decided to wait for a BUG proof. Congratulations on a great find. Mike

06-07-2006, 11:02 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Interesting (at least for me) It is not safety marked, but says loaded. normal I presume?

06-07-2006, 11:45 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	yes Ron, it is marked Germany on the front of the frame. Looks like I scored ok

06-08-2006, 03:21 AM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	So far no one has noted the Swiss trigger plate... --Dwight

06-08-2006, 08:29 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Dwight, I know you told me that off-line, I have trouble figuring that stuff out for some reason. The side plate is marked 93 (the last two of the serial number), hidden style, as is the rest of the gun. Ed

06-08-2006, 10:07 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Dwight, I guess it is like looking for a dropped penny and tripping over a big rock you didn't see. Sometimes focus obscures the obvious. So, this Luger possesses more than one enigma. Strike the remark about textbook. I think I will go try to find something to season my plate of crow. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-08-2006, 10:20 AM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Ron/Dwight, guess I will take better pictures of the sideplate, it looks fine to me... A lucky find to match the serial number? A re-stamping of the serial number? Anything I should look at closer on it? Ed

06-08-2006, 12:48 PM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Ron, Not to worry, I did the same thing a couple days ago in email, missed an entire toggle train mismatch, Ed knows! Ed, Check the comparison here: --Dwight

06-08-2006, 04:46 PM	#18
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Ed, it appears that the photos were taken under ordinary household tungsten light, resulting in incorrect warm colors. You need to set your camera for tungsten light and it should correct the colors automatically. Your camera manual should tell you how to do this.

06-08-2006, 04:59 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	thanks Aaron, will try that, and also without wine coolers too this particular camera takes very nice outdoor shots or with good light, i have had very poor success with it on in-door shots.... Ed

06-08-2006, 05:16 PM	#20
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Ed, Regarding when this gun was made, I have taken the time to look a little more closely into the serial number data and some information in Imperial Lugers. The order to formally adopt the 1908-model Parabellum as the issue pistol for the German Imperial Army was signed in August, 1908; the actual contract with DWM was December, 1908. Thus, the vast majority of 1908 First Issue pistols must have been made in 1909. In interpreting commercial serial number data, I have taken as an axiom that commercial versions of a military variation would have been introduced roughly contemporaneously--certainly not before, and likely not very much after. The first 1908 Commercial I have recorded is sn39142--the odds are slim that it was made in the final weeks of 1908 when DWM was beginning to fulfill their first Army contract, but it is possible.. According to the French Gazette des Armes #370 model 1906 Parabellum were first made available in the Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint-Etienne catalog in 1909; the first of these guns I have in the database is sn45425. This corrollary evidence suggests that your 1906AE 9mm sn44693 was made early in 1909. Regarding the circle-B stamp on the barrel, I record five examples from sn45844 to sn48900, all but the last (a Swiss commercial) American Eagles and all in .30. The Brazilian contract was fulfilled between 1907 and 1911, so these could very well be taken from acceptance parts in the same manner as the Swiss cross marked 1900AE examples. Walter (The Luger Book) notes that Brazilian guns are hard-used and sometimes found rebarrelled to 9mm. Kenyon (Lugers At Random) asserts that some of the 9mm examples "may" be of original manufacture. (This seems to me like a stretch...) However, one wonders, might this barrel provide evidence of original-manufactured 9mm Brazilian Lugers? or, where and when did Brazil get 9mm replacement barrels and, if from DWM, might they have been inspected during manufacture? These are WAQuestions only, until someone comes up with supporting or contrary evidence. --Dwight