Gun resurrection?

Fabian23 · 06-11-2006, 06:34 PM

It seems many on this forum take many a wounded Luger and bring them back to their former glory. There is nothing quite like pulling the trigger of some rifle/pistol/musket etc which was once a piece of lifeless metal and wood, and punching nice tidy holes down range.

I was very curious about the short lived needle-fire period. There is plenty of good sources with descriptions of the Dreyse and Chassepot rifles, but not much on how it felt to fire one. They seemed resigned to the history books as a short lived but essential step in the evolution of firearms, something of a damp squib. Several thousands of French and Prussian soldiers effectively slaughtered each other in 1870-1871 with these rifles so they couldn't have been that useless. I know that there are exclusively needle-fire competitions in the cradle of the system...Germany, so I decided I would like to have a go.

I bought a beautiful Chassepot rifle at a local antique arms fair, which had the original rubber gasket and needle still present, then off I went to do some research. My Deutsch is not too good, but my French is my mother tongue so I delved into Google.fr and came up with a few recipes for the paper needle-fire cartridges....huzzah!

As recommended I replaced the gasket with some rubber plumbing washers, and replaced the firing needle with a sharped length of stainless steel rod. Next was the cartridge, this, for those who don't know, was made of paper, a card disc at the base has an inverted percussion cap, then goes the powder, and finally the bullet. Basically just like a modern cartridge, but with a thin paper case rather than brass. The needle would pierce the card base of the cartridge, strike the inside of the cap and BANG!

The original looks like this:

A chamber cast gave me the OAL and the bore was just right for a lead 45/70 bullet.

Fouling was one of the great downfalls of the needle-fire system, all that burnt or burning paper would cake the chamber walls after a few shots such that you could not push the next cartridge in without a quick brush of the chamber, so I decided to use nitrated paper, at least this would burn more efficiently and probably leave a finer soot in the chamber.

I settled on a charge of 50gr of Swiss #2 black powder, with some polenta between the charge and bullet to adjust the OAL. The final product looks like this:

I made a good few of these (felt like I was back at school doing 'Arts and carfts') and off I went to the range with a target at 50m. I thumbed back the needle cocker, opened the bolt, and pushed in the cartridge, closed the bolt.....boom boom boom goes the heartbeat as I raise the rifle, take aim, and squeeze the trigger. She goes off smooth as could be! Yes, yes, yeeeessssss. After a quick jig I fired off the rest of the cartridges, with a quick scrub of the chamber every 3-4 shots, not a problem

So how does it feel? Well, just like any other BP breechloading rifle, but the knowledge that you have to make those cartridge from scratch makes if feel that little bit more special. Oh, and there are no irritating cases to clean afterwards

Any of you have tales of bringing back odd pistols/revolvers/rifles back from obscurity?

Steinar · 06-12-2006, 08:43 AM

Have noe experience with something like this.. looks like an interesting hobby

Ron Wood · 06-12-2006, 10:59 AM

Now that is interesting stuff! Thank you for a refreshing departure from the norm. I admire your ability to research an resurrect such a unique shooting experience.

Ron Smith · 06-12-2006, 11:07 AM

Very neat post. Congratulations on your success. I work in a Muzzle Loading specialty shop. I will share this with the owner. We have several oddities in the shop, and more come in all of the time. This will be very useful information.

Fabian23 · 06-12-2006, 11:16 AM

Thanks guys. Messing around with BP is my main hobby

Morgan, I believe the Norwegians had a very good military caping breechloader, called a Kamerlader didn't they? It was also an underhammer system. It was about way before the Sharps came about, that would be interesting to bring back to life too.

06-11-2006, 06:34 PM	#1
Fabian23 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canton Bern Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gun resurrection? It seems many on this forum take many a wounded Luger and bring them back to their former glory. There is nothing quite like pulling the trigger of some rifle/pistol/musket etc which was once a piece of lifeless metal and wood, and punching nice tidy holes down range. I was very curious about the short lived needle-fire period. There is plenty of good sources with descriptions of the Dreyse and Chassepot rifles, but not much on how it felt to fire one. They seemed resigned to the history books as a short lived but essential step in the evolution of firearms, something of a damp squib. Several thousands of French and Prussian soldiers effectively slaughtered each other in 1870-1871 with these rifles so they couldn't have been that useless. I know that there are exclusively needle-fire competitions in the cradle of the system...Germany, so I decided I would like to have a go. I bought a beautiful Chassepot rifle at a local antique arms fair, which had the original rubber gasket and needle still present, then off I went to do some research. My Deutsch is not too good, but my French is my mother tongue so I delved into Google.fr and came up with a few recipes for the paper needle-fire cartridges....huzzah! As recommended I replaced the gasket with some rubber plumbing washers, and replaced the firing needle with a sharped length of stainless steel rod. Next was the cartridge, this, for those who don't know, was made of paper, a card disc at the base has an inverted percussion cap, then goes the powder, and finally the bullet. Basically just like a modern cartridge, but with a thin paper case rather than brass. The needle would pierce the card base of the cartridge, strike the inside of the cap and BANG! The original looks like this: A chamber cast gave me the OAL and the bore was just right for a lead 45/70 bullet. Fouling was one of the great downfalls of the needle-fire system, all that burnt or burning paper would cake the chamber walls after a few shots such that you could not push the next cartridge in without a quick brush of the chamber, so I decided to use nitrated paper, at least this would burn more efficiently and probably leave a finer soot in the chamber. I settled on a charge of 50gr of Swiss #2 black powder, with some polenta between the charge and bullet to adjust the OAL. The final product looks like this: I made a good few of these (felt like I was back at school doing 'Arts and carfts') and off I went to the range with a target at 50m. I thumbed back the needle cocker, opened the bolt, and pushed in the cartridge, closed the bolt.....boom boom boom goes the heartbeat as I raise the rifle, take aim, and squeeze the trigger. She goes off smooth as could be! Yes, yes, yeeeessssss. After a quick jig I fired off the rest of the cartridges, with a quick scrub of the chamber every 3-4 shots, not a problem So how does it feel? Well, just like any other BP breechloading rifle, but the knowledge that you have to make those cartridge from scratch makes if feel that little bit more special. Oh, and there are no irritating cases to clean afterwards Any of you have tales of bringing back odd pistols/revolvers/rifles back from obscurity?

06-12-2006, 10:59 AM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Now that is interesting stuff! Thank you for a refreshing departure from the norm. I admire your ability to research an resurrect such a unique shooting experience. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-12-2006, 11:07 AM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Very neat post. Congratulations on your success. I work in a Muzzle Loading specialty shop. I will share this with the owner. We have several oddities in the shop, and more come in all of the time. This will be very useful information. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-12-2006, 08:43 AM	#2
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Have noe experience with something like this.. looks like an interesting hobby __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

06-12-2006, 11:16 AM	#5
Fabian23 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canton Bern Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys. Messing around with BP is my main hobby Morgan, I believe the Norwegians had a very good military caping breechloader, called a Kamerlader didn't they? It was also an underhammer system. It was about way before the Sharps came about, that would be interesting to bring back to life too.