Is this a good deal?

gbelleh · 10-12-2006, 07:18 PM

Hello,

I am not new to guns, but I am new to Lugers. I have an opportunity to buy a 1920 commercial in either 7.62 or in 9mm. They are both in similar condition. Blueing is I'd say at least about 75%. Grips are darker on the 9mm, but good shape. Very clean chambers and nice bores. Numbers all match. The 9mm is serial # 36xx. I don't remember the # for the .30.

Both are $695. Is one of these calibers any more desirable as far as collector value than the other?

I'm not a serious collector, but I'd like a good solid example of a nice old Luger for my modest but growing collection of early 20th century firearms.

Does this sound like an ok deal? Thanks.

75BShooter · 10-12-2006, 07:57 PM

.30 Luger ammo is far more expensive than the 9mm. I don't shoot the .30 for that reason. For that reason the .30 is less desireable. My 2 cents.
Tim

John Sabato · 10-12-2006, 08:37 PM

If you are not going to shoot it, then either caliber would do... but for the same reasons mentioned by Tim (75BShooter) I would also take the 9mm over the .30 caliber gun... the price is reasonable if you think the condition warrants it... Welcome to the Lugerforum! Please post photos when you get it...

Dwight Gruber · 10-12-2006, 08:47 PM

Gino,

Under most circumstances, a "1920 Commercial" is found originally in .30 cal. Does the 9mm have a sear safety or markings which might indicate that it was rebarelled for an authentic purpose?

Also, the term Alphabet Commercial has superceded the "1920 Commercial" designation. This is because the serial number on the frame includes a small, script letter--this is properly (and legally) part of the serial number itself, and should always accompany it in any description.

Knowing the suffix on the pistols you are considering might affect a recommendation, particularly if the suffix of the 9mm is s, t, or u.

--Dwight

gbelleh · 10-12-2006, 09:09 PM

I don't recall seeing a suffix on the 9mm. The serial # is just 4 digits, 36xx. Would the suffix letter be only on the frame? Maybe I didn't notice it. All parts that I could see had the same last 2 digits. The top of the barrel was stamped 1920. That is all I remember seeing on the pistol. What would the suffix s, t or u mean?
I might go take another look at it tomorrow. Anything else to look out for?

Thanks again.

Edward Tinker · 10-12-2006, 09:22 PM

Welcome to the forum! If it has a 1920, then it is probably not a alphabet luger, as it is either a ww1 with the date taken off, or a commerical that came into military service...

Does it have a stock lug?

And all things considered, a shooter 9mm is worth more than a shooter 7.65mm (also known as 30 luger). The 7.62 x39 is a rifle cartridge used by nato

Ed

Ron Smith · 10-12-2006, 10:38 PM

Gino,

If it's stamped 1920 ? That's the one you want. Much more collectable than the .30 alphabet commercial.

Don M · 10-12-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

If it has a 1920, then it is probably not a alphabet luger

Unless it is a Alphabet DWM with a 1920 property stamp!

Edward Tinker · 10-12-2006, 10:55 PM

That is possible, but not as likely. The 1920 stamp is found on pistols later than 1920, 1921, etc, but how often is it found on something made in 1927, 1928, and 1929? Jan Still discusses a few much later ones, but they are few and far between.

Until we see pictures of the frame, suffix and if it has a stock lug, then I would think it is an older one, rather than a alphabet luger...

I am not saying it is impossible, but less likely (although you never know

).

George Anderson · 10-13-2006, 08:55 AM

Gino, two questions...how is the area beneath the safety lever on the .30 cal marked, GESICHERT or SAFE? What kind of proofs do the pistols have? I would expect a Crown/N on the left side of the .30 cal. What about the 9mm, multiple proofs, right or left side, or does bear a Crown N?

gbelleh · 10-13-2006, 09:41 AM

Thanks for all the info everyone. I'll take another look at these guns today with all of this in mind.

I know the 9mm said GESICHERT under the safety. I didn't look at the .30 as closely because I was more interested in the 9mm.

Dwight Gruber · 10-13-2006, 12:43 PM

Gino,

The letter suffix, if present, will only be found on the serial number at the front of the frame.

George's questions about proof marks are apt. If the 9mm has proofs on the right, try to determine if they are crowns with Germanic letters underneath, or eagles of some sort. Also, try to note if the serial numbers on the small parts are stamped in the commercial, hidden fashoin--on the bottom edges of the trigger plate and tekedown lever, for instance--or are stamped plainly on the visible faces of most of the parts.

The sear safety, if present, will be a small piece of metal riveted to the receiver above the sear bar and extending across the top of the trigger plate.

The s, t, or u suffix are unlikely to be found on a Luger with a 1920 chamber stamp.

Will the owner (dealer?) permit you to take pictures for you to post here in the furtherance of helping you come to a decision?

--Dwight

Don M · 10-13-2006, 12:52 PM

Ed,

I wasn't trying to be critical; it's just that I have several times been mislead in my research by reports of "1920 DWMs" that really were 1920 property stamped. This includes Alphabet DWMs up to and including the "m" suffix range, manufactured in 1924.

gbelleh · 10-13-2006, 04:43 PM

Ok,

The Luger is serial # 3665a. The suffix appears on the front of the frame and on the under side of the barrel. The 1920 on top of the frame is clear and there is no evidence of any other number ever having been there.

DWM is on the toggle along with the number 65.

There are three proof marks on the right side of the frame that look like they could be eagles, some kind of bird with wings spread, underneath each bird seem to be 3 characters I can't make out.

All numbers (65) are clearly visible. There is a sear safety and a stock lug.

Matching magazine with 3665 and the # 1 above the serial #.

After seeing it again, I'd rate the finish a strong 90% +.

Wood grips have some slight dings, but no chips or cracks. Overall very good condition.

So, what do we have here?

Thanks.

gbelleh · 10-13-2006, 04:46 PM

After checking the technical info again, the proof marks match #31 on the "Proof 3" page.

Thanks.

Dwight Gruber · 10-13-2006, 06:17 PM

Gino,

Very good reporting on this gun.

What you are looking at is a 1920 dated Luger made for police use, with what is probably an authentic matching magazine.

Run, do not walk, and pay the money for this gun. It is a desirable, collection worthy piece, much less common than the .30 cal. gun also being offered, and has a value somewhat greater than its asking price.

--Dwight

Don M · 10-13-2006, 07:13 PM

Gino, I second Dwight's advice.

gbelleh · 10-13-2006, 08:09 PM

Thanks for the help, everyone. I did pick up the pistol.

I'm still not completely sure what it is. Was this pistol actually built in 1920 for police use? Or was it re-worked after 1920?

I don't have my digital camera this weekend, but I'll take some pictures when I get it back.

Thanks again.

Edward Tinker · 10-13-2006, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don M
Ed,

I wasn't trying to be critical; it's just that I have several times been mislead in my research by reports of "1920 DWMs" that really were 1920 property stamped. This includes Alphabet DWMs up to and including the "m" suffix range, manufactured in 1924.

point taken, didn't mean for it to sound too

critical, I just have experienced the same kind of thing, but like I said, point taken, good call on your side

In ref to your last question G; depends.... usually the 1920 is a Reichswehr property stamp and not a date, however, they did make them in 1920. Lots of pictures and we can help. Also, few 1920's were probably "made" for the police. So, short answer, give us pictures, in focus, showing the assorted areas and we can "possibly" tell you.

Don M · 10-13-2006, 09:20 PM

Gino,

In late 1919 - early1920, DWM resumed production of dated, military-accepted Lugers for the Reichswehr and the police. In 1921, the Allies shut down their military production, leaving their "commercial" line alone. Probably, about 70,000 pistols were manufactured with 1920 or 1921 chamber dates, military acceptance stamps and exposed small parts numbers. These went to the Army and the police.

The 1920-dated pistols had serial numbers ranging from 1 to 9999 with no suffix, "a", "b" and "n" suffixes. The 1921-dated pistols had no suffix, "a" and "b."

Quite a few of these also received the 1920 property stamp identifying them as government property. This is the source of 1920/1920 and 1920/1921 "double-dated" Lugers.

10-12-2006, 07:18 PM	#1
gbelleh User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is this a good deal? Hello, I am not new to guns, but I am new to Lugers. I have an opportunity to buy a 1920 commercial in either 7.62 or in 9mm. They are both in similar condition. Blueing is I'd say at least about 75%. Grips are darker on the 9mm, but good shape. Very clean chambers and nice bores. Numbers all match. The 9mm is serial # 36xx. I don't remember the # for the .30. Both are $695. Is one of these calibers any more desirable as far as collector value than the other? I'm not a serious collector, but I'd like a good solid example of a nice old Luger for my modest but growing collection of early 20th century firearms. Does this sound like an ok deal? Thanks.

10-12-2006, 09:22 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Welcome to the forum! If it has a 1920, then it is probably not a alphabet luger, as it is either a ww1 with the date taken off, or a commerical that came into military service... Does it have a stock lug? And all things considered, a shooter 9mm is worth more than a shooter 7.65mm (also known as 30 luger). The 7.62 x39 is a rifle cartridge used by nato Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-12-2006, 10:38 PM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Gino, If it's stamped 1920 ? That's the one you want. Much more collectable than the .30 alphabet commercial. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-13-2006, 12:52 PM	#13
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Ed, I wasn't trying to be critical; it's just that I have several times been mislead in my research by reports of "1920 DWMs" that really were 1920 property stamped. This includes Alphabet DWMs up to and including the "m" suffix range, manufactured in 1924. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

10-13-2006, 07:13 PM	#17
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Gino, I second Dwight's advice. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

10-12-2006, 07:57 PM	#2
75BShooter User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: S.F. Bay Area Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	.30 Luger ammo is far more expensive than the 9mm. I don't shoot the .30 for that reason. For that reason the .30 is less desireable. My 2 cents. Tim

10-12-2006, 08:37 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	If you are not going to shoot it, then either caliber would do... but for the same reasons mentioned by Tim (75BShooter) I would also take the 9mm over the .30 caliber gun... the price is reasonable if you think the condition warrants it... Welcome to the Lugerforum! Please post photos when you get it... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-12-2006, 08:47 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Gino, Under most circumstances, a "1920 Commercial" is found originally in .30 cal. Does the 9mm have a sear safety or markings which might indicate that it was rebarelled for an authentic purpose? Also, the term Alphabet Commercial has superceded the "1920 Commercial" designation. This is because the serial number on the frame includes a small, script letter--this is properly (and legally) part of the serial number itself, and should always accompany it in any description. Knowing the suffix on the pistols you are considering might affect a recommendation, particularly if the suffix of the 9mm is s, t, or u. --Dwight

10-12-2006, 09:09 PM	#5
gbelleh User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't recall seeing a suffix on the 9mm. The serial # is just 4 digits, 36xx. Would the suffix letter be only on the frame? Maybe I didn't notice it. All parts that I could see had the same last 2 digits. The top of the barrel was stamped 1920. That is all I remember seeing on the pistol. What would the suffix s, t or u mean? I might go take another look at it tomorrow. Anything else to look out for? Thanks again.

10-12-2006, 10:55 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	That is possible, but not as likely. The 1920 stamp is found on pistols later than 1920, 1921, etc, but how often is it found on something made in 1927, 1928, and 1929? Jan Still discusses a few much later ones, but they are few and far between. Until we see pictures of the frame, suffix and if it has a stock lug, then I would think it is an older one, rather than a alphabet luger... I am not saying it is impossible, but less likely (although you never know ).

10-13-2006, 08:55 AM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	Gino, two questions...how is the area beneath the safety lever on the .30 cal marked, GESICHERT or SAFE? What kind of proofs do the pistols have? I would expect a Crown/N on the left side of the .30 cal. What about the 9mm, multiple proofs, right or left side, or does bear a Crown N?

10-13-2006, 09:41 AM	#11
gbelleh User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for all the info everyone. I'll take another look at these guns today with all of this in mind. I know the 9mm said GESICHERT under the safety. I didn't look at the .30 as closely because I was more interested in the 9mm.

10-13-2006, 12:43 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Gino, The letter suffix, if present, will only be found on the serial number at the front of the frame. George's questions about proof marks are apt. If the 9mm has proofs on the right, try to determine if they are crowns with Germanic letters underneath, or eagles of some sort. Also, try to note if the serial numbers on the small parts are stamped in the commercial, hidden fashoin--on the bottom edges of the trigger plate and tekedown lever, for instance--or are stamped plainly on the visible faces of most of the parts. The sear safety, if present, will be a small piece of metal riveted to the receiver above the sear bar and extending across the top of the trigger plate. The s, t, or u suffix are unlikely to be found on a Luger with a 1920 chamber stamp. Will the owner (dealer?) permit you to take pictures for you to post here in the furtherance of helping you come to a decision? --Dwight

10-13-2006, 04:43 PM	#14
gbelleh User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok, The Luger is serial # 3665a. The suffix appears on the front of the frame and on the under side of the barrel. The 1920 on top of the frame is clear and there is no evidence of any other number ever having been there. DWM is on the toggle along with the number 65. There are three proof marks on the right side of the frame that look like they could be eagles, some kind of bird with wings spread, underneath each bird seem to be 3 characters I can't make out. All numbers (65) are clearly visible. There is a sear safety and a stock lug. Matching magazine with 3665 and the # 1 above the serial #. After seeing it again, I'd rate the finish a strong 90% +. Wood grips have some slight dings, but no chips or cracks. Overall very good condition. So, what do we have here? Thanks.

10-13-2006, 04:46 PM	#15
gbelleh User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	After checking the technical info again, the proof marks match #31 on the "Proof 3" page. Thanks.

10-13-2006, 06:17 PM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Gino, Very good reporting on this gun. What you are looking at is a 1920 dated Luger made for police use, with what is probably an authentic matching magazine. Run, do not walk, and pay the money for this gun. It is a desirable, collection worthy piece, much less common than the .30 cal. gun also being offered, and has a value somewhat greater than its asking price. --Dwight

10-13-2006, 08:09 PM	#18
gbelleh User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the help, everyone. I did pick up the pistol. I'm still not completely sure what it is. Was this pistol actually built in 1920 for police use? Or was it re-worked after 1920? I don't have my digital camera this weekend, but I'll take some pictures when I get it back. Thanks again.

10-13-2006, 09:20 PM	#20
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Gino, In late 1919 - early1920, DWM resumed production of dated, military-accepted Lugers for the Reichswehr and the police. In 1921, the Allies shut down their military production, leaving their "commercial" line alone. Probably, about 70,000 pistols were manufactured with 1920 or 1921 chamber dates, military acceptance stamps and exposed small parts numbers. These went to the Army and the police. The 1920-dated pistols had serial numbers ranging from 1 to 9999 with no suffix, "a", "b" and "n" suffixes. The 1921-dated pistols had no suffix, "a" and "b." Quite a few of these also received the 1920 property stamp identifying them as government property. This is the source of 1920/1920 and 1920/1921 "double-dated" Lugers. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com