Erfurt Side Plate

[Bob Kovacs]

Hello Guys...

First let me say how much i love this Luger Forum. You guys are the best. Now for my question...I want to replace the side plate on my 1916 Erfurt Luger. Its the only part except for the magazine that is a different serial number. Its made by Erfurt, but is a little pitted and i would like to replace it. Can i use a plate from DWM or Mauser or does it have to be from Erfurt? Thanks..Bob

Bob, From a collector's point of view, the only correct side plate for this pistol is one with the same 2 digits as the rest of the numbered parts and a crown over a letter Imperial inspection mark. As far as function is concerned, any replacement side plate, even another original Erfurt, may require some fitting to have it lay flat, and the trigger lever inside may have to be change for proper sear release. Tom

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks,


Tomâ??s comments regarding function are right on target. Lugers predate fully interchangeable parts, and replacing a part may require some fitting in order for the pistol to be safe - or even functional.


OTOH, Iâ??m not quite sure of Tomâ??s meaning when he writes of the â??correct side plateâ?�. The only side plate that would make your Luger all original (â??matchingâ?� in collector language) is the original side plate. That side plate is long gone :-(


Replacing the current non-original current side plate with another non-original side plate that happens to have the same last two digits as the Lugerâ??s frame would only make the pistol appear to match. In short, it would be a fake.


Hope this helps!


Best regards,


Kyrie

Kyrie and I disagree on what is a matching pistol. If one can find a matching numbered part from the same manufacturer, with any proofs that are proper and with the correct original finish, I consider the pistol to be matching and so do most collector. I see no difference from the car collector who replaces his dented model A Ford fender with a different original A fender. The car and the pistol are definately not factory original, but they are matching original parts. Not some renumbered phoney fake, that many dealer and refinisher are trying to pass off as original. Restored at best.

[Kyrie]

Hi Tom,


We do indeed differ on just what the term â??matchingâ?� means :-(


Moreover I cordially, and quite strongly, disagree with your comment that â??most collectorsâ?� agree with your position. Most collectors, at least in my experience, would respond very negatively (and very strongly) if offered an altered pistol as â??matching.â?�


Best regards,


Kyrie

[bill m]

Hi Kyrie,

If told that it was "altered", I'm sure most collectors would agree with you, but this information isn't told, so no one knows it was altered, except the man who changed the part. There is NO WAY for you to know that pin or trigger or sideplate, was changed, and thus, you would accept the gun as being original and matching. We have been thru this before and I admire your point of view, but the other side of this discussion is that you can restore a piece back to how it is suppose to be. I'll bet you that I can change the connecting pin in 5 guns and you can not get all 5 correct as to which has been messed with and which hasn't? -- and for that matter -- how do I know which guns are correct to start with, as I wasn't there at the factory to pick them up?? Sometimes I think we all go to extremes as what we call an all original and matching gun, we have no idea if it is actually as issued from the factory. When a Luger is from 50 to 90 years old and has been thru a number of different owners and handlers, the only thing we can go on is if the blue is the original color, and the numbers and proofs all correspond to that particular model -- thus matching. I personally do not think you can tell the difference of a changed sideplate if it is done correctly and with the proper replacement -- same style, numbers, and model.

[Jesse]

I have to get in on this one. For a Luger to be to all original and/or a collector (NOTE, with some exception) IT has to have all the original parts, proofs , finish ,etc it came with from the factory. The term "Matching" is just that, it has all the original parts with the original "matching" numbers. The term "Matched" means that somewhere along the line one or more parts have got lost, broken, etc. and were replaced with a new or surplus part the has the same numbers. Thus the Luger is not original and in most cases will lose much of its collector value.


...............Jesse

In Tom's example, how does one know if the 'matching found' sideplate is not the original sideplate which started life on that particular gun? It could have been and some how gotten separated along the way.


In the early sixties at a gun show in Norristown Pa. I purchased a lovely 98% Borchardt, serial number 305. Four years later at a gun show in Columbus, Ohio I found a Borchardt stock and cheekpiece numbered 305. Of course I purchased this find and considered I had a matching set. Somewhere, some how these pieces had been separated, but according to Kyrie this would not be considered a matching set. I feel if the number is correct along with color and every other criterion, then it is matching. Who can say different?


Bill S.

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


Iâ??m afraid the comparison between the Borchardt and the Luger is invalid :-(


There were relatively very few Borchardt pistols made and their serial numbers did not repeat. There was one and only one Borchardt pistol serial number 305 - congratulations on your find. OTOH, there was something like 10,000 Lugers with a serial number ending on â??05â??. If you had a Luger serial number xx05 with a mismatched side plate and found a side plate numbered â??05â??, it would hardly be reasonable to assume the side plate you found was that 1 in 10,000 you needed.


The answer to your question, â??Who can say different?â?? is â??Any knowledgeable collectorâ?? :-(


Best regards,

Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


Respectfully and cordially, there are several ways to tell if a side plate has been switched. A fellow who switches side plates to create a fake isnâ??t likely to fool an experienced collector. Itâ??s the newbies who go to the cleaners due to this practice :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Craig]

Thanks to Kyrie I've got a better understanding of the purpose of _matching numbers_. Matching no.s indicate originality. If they aren't the original matching no.s then the pistol isn't originally matching either.


Mechanically speaking, matching numbers indicate those specific parts were fitted to and made to function with each other by the manufacturer.


If the demonstration of originality isn't the reason for matching numbers then what is? Why do collectors want them?


Now I'm hoping my post _matches_ the thread and is coherent:-)

[Uncle Mike]

Hi,Personally I feel Kyrie is 100% right.I see nothing wrong with finding a matching part as long as it is revealed.The problem comes about when that firearm is sold and it's not revealed.If someone wishes to restore a pistol thats his perogative but it's not ORIGINAL.It may be beautiful and I might buy it but that's not the point.

Kyrie,


I have been collecting Lugers for over 40 years and I think I have developed some expertise on the subject though there is always room to learn. Yes, there were many more '05' sideplates then there were '305' Borchardt stocks, but that just makes the '05' sideplate eaiser to find. I defy any Luger collector to distinguish between 2 or more like kind same number sideplates in equal condition made by the same manufacturer within a short time period say 5 years. The color, number stamps, machine marks, will all be the same within normal tolerances. Only the trigger pull may have to be adjusted to make a perfect match. The gun will not be devalued but will increase in value because of the matching sideplate.


If I am wrong, please educate me on how one tells in what year or in what batch a certain '05' number sideplate was maunfactured so that I know it DEFINITELY did not come from any same manufacturer, particular Luger!


Does your concept of originality also extend to screws? If a 98% Luger has a butchered grip screw, is it acceptable to upgrade the screw from another gun or will that also devalue the piece? I think you may be spliting the proverbial hair.


Ciao,


Bill S.

[Johnny Peppers]

Just my opinion, but I think where the rub comes in is calling the pistol with a replaced part a fake. A fake implies the intent to defraud someone. I don't believe that Bob had any intention of trying to defraud anyone, just that he wanted his pistol to again match, or be restored to it's original state. If Bob had changed his Erfurt to a 1915 date he would have indeed created a fake. If Bob finds a correctly numbered an proofed Erfurt sideplate, his pistol will be restored with original parts. It is no longer factory original, but is still an original Erfurt as only an Erfurt sideplate will be correct and original. Remember that a part can be original without being THE original part. In short, the problem is never with the pistol, but always with the representation (or misrepresntation) of it.

[bill m]

Hi Kyrie,

You've mentioned twice now that "any knowledgeable collector" can tell if the sideplate has been replaced. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable and I have to say that I can not tell if a part has been changed if it is the same manufacture, style of numbers, and if proofed has the correct proofs. Not to be a smart-ass, but perhaps you can share with all of us how in the world you can tell if the trigger is original to a gun or not - as long as it is matched? How about the other parts -- pins, holdopens, firing pins and ect. I understand what your point is, but I can't seem to agree that you or anyone else can tell the difference if done properly. Every gun you come across from a dealer has to be subject in your mind as having been tampered with. You would have to spend 10's of hours under a scope looking for rub marks that just didn't seem to match up, and then you would never be sure if it was original or replaced. I think that it is possible to tell a replaced part if it doesn't fit properly or is of a different manufacture or different size of numbers, but if correctly fitted and if lets say a trigger from a 1940 42 is replaced with another trigger from another 1940 42, I do not think anyone is capable of telling which is the original trigger to the gun. Perhaps I'm wrong, so inspire me with knowledge.

[ViggoG]

I think we doth protest too much !

This argument will never end until the terms are clarified for once and for all .


The term "MATCHING" merely denotes that all parts are of the proper type and manufacture.

This identifies a gun of a minimum degree of propriety .



The term "ORIGINAL" Is a Warrant (On the Face) that is most usually accompanied by "A Documented History" or it too is forever open to question by any "Careful Collector" .



When we chose to use these two terms in interchangable fashion we will always have a "Blood Letting Battle" between the "Purists" and all others who think differently.

:[

Without Documentation Who Gives A *$#)(^$$ anyhow .


If a man chooses to pay Top Premium $$$$$ Without Seeing, Documents and then Checking on the Documents' He comes into the class of those who are soon to be parted with his $$$$$ . :[ :[ :[

I intend to hurt no feelings just a note of clarification .

If anyone takes this personally , It is not tinended to be !

My Utmost Apology Is Extended, to any such person, Herewith .

Looks more like $.09 or more Who cares .

ViggoG

[G.T.]

Hello to all! I have watched this thread with interest, and I think bill make a good point...I think that it is pretty tough to match a sideplate, and most times (but not all!) an experienced collector could pick it out...but a Mauser trigger, would be pratically impossible to catch, take down lever, same way.....most seasoned collectors like Bill M, Johnny P, and even me, have handled a lot of lugers over a long period of time. Even more importantly, we have acquired P.08's from sources, and a time frame, that preclude's the modern pratice of restoration, in it's many forms! And, I am quite sure that we have individually paid our dues...but the fact is that, those days are over, and your going to have to learn at an accelated and brutal rate to play in the collectors arena from here on out...some P.08's are going to come around with "Improvements" that you are just not going to catch....there are very few unmessed with P.08's that are still out there for sale! Hell, there were damn few 10 years ago....you're going to have to handle a ton of pistols, and shell out some bucks to learn what you have to learn, to get nice Lugers for your collection.....If you really want to learn about a proof mark, fork out a couple of thousand for a nice unit, and see if that proof mark take on a whole new look when it's in your hands, AND YOU OWN IT! You don't get that out of books! Either you live and breath it, or you keep your wallet in your pocket! there ain't no middle ground! Good luck to all! till...later...G.T.

[Thor]

Personally, I see both sides of this story and arguement! I think it occurs often enough that it would be nice if one person from each side (ie Kyrie and Bill M) would write a concise couple of paragraphs relaying their argument and we could enshrine the disertations in the General Information FAQ section for new collectors to absorb. Just a thought! I HIGHLY respect both men! ~Thor~

Kyrie, Since there appear to be many different interpetations of the term "matching" (currently some importer are calling some of their EG & Russian imports "matching" only because if parts didn't match during the rework process, they were crudely renumbered). I personally think that your should change your terminology for a righteous luger to FACTORY ORIGINAL or "as issued original". Tom

[Kyrie]

Hi Craig,


Youâ??re right on target and understand perfectly


Best regards,


Kyrie