Modern Ammo

JPR · 03-11-2007, 03:30 PM

I obtained a P08 (1918 ERFURT) from a family member sometime back and I was thinking of taking it to the range for some shooting. I have field stripped it and inspected it closely with magnification and everything looks good to me including the bore which looks real good after several strokes of a brass bristle and solvent patches. I know without seeing the gun personally it may be hard to evaluate the guns range worthiness so if some would care to give me their opinion and or their own personal experience based on the following assumptions being true I would apreciate it.

Assumptions:

All parts have matching numbers and are slightly to moderately worn.
Gun is clean and properly lubricated.
Gun is properly assembled.

My concern/question is this. Are these guns which apparently were manufactured in 1918 able to handle modern factory 9mm hardball ammo?

DaveinTN · 03-11-2007, 04:10 PM

JPR

After reading many posts on the forum, it appears the 115 grain Winchester 9mm available in the white box at Wal-Mart is the way to go.

I just bought a shooter and I can't wait to take it to the range.

Hopefully, some other more experienced members will also offer some advice on ammunition.

Don't forget eye and ear protection when you try out your pistol!

Dave in TN.

Sieger · 03-11-2007, 05:00 PM

Hi:

Assuming all of the parts are in good order and have not been altered, it all depends upon the condition of your springs. The Luger design, itself, is a very strong one, capable of taking much abuse without failure. If the ammo is too hot, the Luger will tell you by jamming.

The original design was based upon perfect timing between the magazine spring and the recoil spring. As the strength of the ammo increases, so must the tension of these springs to match the power output of the ammo. If one or both of these springs are "tired", your pistol will jam constantly, leading you to believe that Lugers are not reliable.

I'd try some of the Winchester FMJ Round Nose white box as suggested above. Avoid high powered +P or +P+, as these will eventually batter your Luger apart. Also, avoid the chinese imported ammo, as it is much too hot for a Luger. Avoiding the steel cased cheap stuff is also suggested, as you get what you pay for.

For right now, also avoid hollow-point ammo.

If you experience jamming, please write back, as there is an art to solving this problem as well.

If you would happen to be a reloader, this is the way to go with a Luger if you are planning on regularly shooting it. With a little work and the right springs, you can achieve almost 100% reliability with a Luger.

Sieger

JPR · 03-12-2007, 05:08 PM

Thanks for the input. I took it to the range for the first time yesterday. I shot Remington UMC 115gr FMJ Roundnose. Being a little on the safe/paranoid side, I shot the first shot one-handed using the other hand as a shield behind the gun. It felt and sounded fine so from then on I shot normally.
Two hand standing at 25 yds. the accuracy was poor. I noticed it has a hard abrupt trigger pull so I tried benchrest and it was accurate. Perhaps I will want to see about smoothing out the trigger/sear function. It also did feed jam quite often and did not lock open with an empty mag. The problem seemed to be with the magazine seating as tapping and racking usually cured the jams. I only had one stove pipe out of 42 rds fired. All the other jams were failure to chamber jams. The magazine springs are quite stiff. My first post here was asking about them. I then learned that you need a tool to load the mags. I improvised and used a craftsman 3/8 box end wrench which worked well enough. I can't imagine I need more tension in the mag springs, but then again I know next to nothing about Lugers. I appreciate your offer to help with the jams and eagerly await your reply.

Aaron · 03-12-2007, 07:15 PM

As far as modern ammunition being "possibly too pwerful," the general belief is that original German 9mm. ammo packed a greater punch than our commercial stuff. After WWII when everyone was clamoring for 9mm. ammo for their bring-back pistols, there was a general belief that these guns were made with slave labor and were frequently sabotaged with dangerous parts. The ammo companies, fearing lawsuits, loaded our ammo to perform less powerfully.

Sieger · 03-12-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron
As far as modern ammunition being "possibly too pwerful," the general belief is that original German 9mm. ammo packed a greater punch than our commercial stuff. After WWII when everyone was clamoring for 9mm. ammo for their bring-back pistols, there was a general belief that these guns were made with slave labor and were frequently sabotaged with dangerous parts. The ammo companies, fearing lawsuits, loaded our ammo to perform less powerfully.

I've never heard of slave labor being used at the Mauser production facility at Oberndorf. I have heard of it being used extensively in the aircraft and rocket industries, however.

Anyway, the little proof marks on these Lugers attest to the fact that they were thoroughly examined before leaving the factory.

To show just how hypocritical a nation can be, von Braun used slave labor extensively at his rocket production facilities, yet, he was welcomed to the US and given citizenship here almost immediately after the war.

Sad but true.

Sieger

JPR · 03-13-2007, 02:05 PM

Politics makes strange bedfellows...and the cold war made even stranger ones.....You think von Braun being one of the foremost rocket scientists of his time helped to grease the skids for him?

Speaking of rocket scientists, I could sure use the help from one to tell me how to cure my jamming problems ( see above).

Or failing that maybe a Luger scientist, or failing that maybe a guy who just has a lot of knowledge and experience regarding Lugers.

Thanks in advance for any insights you can offer me.

Dwight Gruber · 03-13-2007, 09:28 PM

JP,

Take a look throught the "Shooting and Reloading" Forum. This topic has been covered extensively, and you will find answers to most of your questions--even those you have not yet formulated.

A couple of quick comments--in my experience Remington UMC 115gr FMJ is quite possibly the worst 9mm ammunition manufactured to work in a Luger. Whenever I try it, it feed jams nearly every round.

The other element in feed jamming is the magazine. You will be best served using a modern-made mag--much more on this subject in "Shooting and Reloading" as well.

--Dwight

Sieger · 03-14-2007, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JPR
[BSpeaking of rocket scientists, I could sure use the help from one to tell me how to cure my jamming problems ( see above).

Or failing that maybe a Luger scientist, or failing that maybe a guy who just has a lot of knowledge and experience regarding Lugers.

Thanks in advance for any insights you can offer me.

[/B]

JPR:

Call me this weekend at 718-544-3840 for all you have ever wanted to know about shooting a Luger.

Sieger

JPR · 03-14-2007, 04:32 AM

Thanks Dwight for your tips and referral..I will check into it.....and Thanks Sieger....I might just take you up on your offer....I have free long distance on my cell and weekend minutes are unlimited...

03-11-2007, 03:30 PM	#1
JPR User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Modern Ammo I obtained a P08 (1918 ERFURT) from a family member sometime back and I was thinking of taking it to the range for some shooting. I have field stripped it and inspected it closely with magnification and everything looks good to me including the bore which looks real good after several strokes of a brass bristle and solvent patches. I know without seeing the gun personally it may be hard to evaluate the guns range worthiness so if some would care to give me their opinion and or their own personal experience based on the following assumptions being true I would apreciate it. Assumptions: All parts have matching numbers and are slightly to moderately worn. Gun is clean and properly lubricated. Gun is properly assembled. My concern/question is this. Are these guns which apparently were manufactured in 1918 able to handle modern factory 9mm hardball ammo?

03-11-2007, 05:00 PM	#3
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Shoot That Luger!! Hi: Assuming all of the parts are in good order and have not been altered, it all depends upon the condition of your springs. The Luger design, itself, is a very strong one, capable of taking much abuse without failure. If the ammo is too hot, the Luger will tell you by jamming. The original design was based upon perfect timing between the magazine spring and the recoil spring. As the strength of the ammo increases, so must the tension of these springs to match the power output of the ammo. If one or both of these springs are "tired", your pistol will jam constantly, leading you to believe that Lugers are not reliable. I'd try some of the Winchester FMJ Round Nose white box as suggested above. Avoid high powered +P or +P+, as these will eventually batter your Luger apart. Also, avoid the chinese imported ammo, as it is much too hot for a Luger. Avoiding the steel cased cheap stuff is also suggested, as you get what you pay for. For right now, also avoid hollow-point ammo. If you experience jamming, please write back, as there is an art to solving this problem as well. If you would happen to be a reloader, this is the way to go with a Luger if you are planning on regularly shooting it. With a little work and the right springs, you can achieve almost 100% reliability with a Luger. Sieger

03-11-2007, 04:10 PM	#2
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	JPR After reading many posts on the forum, it appears the 115 grain Winchester 9mm available in the white box at Wal-Mart is the way to go. I just bought a shooter and I can't wait to take it to the range. Hopefully, some other more experienced members will also offer some advice on ammunition. Don't forget eye and ear protection when you try out your pistol! Dave in TN.

03-12-2007, 05:08 PM	#4
JPR User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the input. I took it to the range for the first time yesterday. I shot Remington UMC 115gr FMJ Roundnose. Being a little on the safe/paranoid side, I shot the first shot one-handed using the other hand as a shield behind the gun. It felt and sounded fine so from then on I shot normally. Two hand standing at 25 yds. the accuracy was poor. I noticed it has a hard abrupt trigger pull so I tried benchrest and it was accurate. Perhaps I will want to see about smoothing out the trigger/sear function. It also did feed jam quite often and did not lock open with an empty mag. The problem seemed to be with the magazine seating as tapping and racking usually cured the jams. I only had one stove pipe out of 42 rds fired. All the other jams were failure to chamber jams. The magazine springs are quite stiff. My first post here was asking about them. I then learned that you need a tool to load the mags. I improvised and used a craftsman 3/8 box end wrench which worked well enough. I can't imagine I need more tension in the mag springs, but then again I know next to nothing about Lugers. I appreciate your offer to help with the jams and eagerly await your reply.

03-12-2007, 07:15 PM	#5
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	As far as modern ammunition being "possibly too pwerful," the general belief is that original German 9mm. ammo packed a greater punch than our commercial stuff. After WWII when everyone was clamoring for 9mm. ammo for their bring-back pistols, there was a general belief that these guns were made with slave labor and were frequently sabotaged with dangerous parts. The ammo companies, fearing lawsuits, loaded our ammo to perform less powerfully.

03-13-2007, 02:05 PM	#7
JPR User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Politics makes strange bedfellows...and the cold war made even stranger ones.....You think von Braun being one of the foremost rocket scientists of his time helped to grease the skids for him? Speaking of rocket scientists, I could sure use the help from one to tell me how to cure my jamming problems ( see above). Or failing that maybe a Luger scientist, or failing that maybe a guy who just has a lot of knowledge and experience regarding Lugers. Thanks in advance for any insights you can offer me.

03-13-2007, 09:28 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	JP, Take a look throught the "Shooting and Reloading" Forum. This topic has been covered extensively, and you will find answers to most of your questions--even those you have not yet formulated. A couple of quick comments--in my experience Remington UMC 115gr FMJ is quite possibly the worst 9mm ammunition manufactured to work in a Luger. Whenever I try it, it feed jams nearly every round. The other element in feed jamming is the magazine. You will be best served using a modern-made mag--much more on this subject in "Shooting and Reloading" as well. --Dwight

03-14-2007, 04:32 AM	#10
JPR User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Dwight for your tips and referral..I will check into it.....and Thanks Sieger....I might just take you up on your offer....I have free long distance on my cell and weekend minutes are unlimited...