Help with ID (Krieghoff)

[bob]

Dear Sir,

I am in need of some help identifying a Luger that I have obtained

from a widow of an army veteran. This weapon has the usual "I brought it home from the war"

story or at least that is what the old fella told me before he passed on, He did serve

from 1943 to 1946 in the army and was with Patton's troops as a Radio Operator.


Anyway, This pistol appears to be a Model P-08 (New style) in 9mm and looks like a 1914 model

with the stock lug and hold open.


Here is where it gets strange, so I will try to cover all the markings.....


Barrel- Crown N laying on its side at the 11 o'clock position (looking from the chamber)


A Luftampt 2 at the 1 o'clock position. No serial number on bottom of barrel


Chamber- **** Here is the kicker- A Krieghoff logo (Anchor HK) and just Suhl under it.


The same logo as on the 'S' code Krieghoffs (just not on the toggle)


Receiver- Crown N on its side (crown toward the barrel) No Serial number (left side)


2 (Two) Luftampts on right side.


Toggle- Blank top and a "4" under the rear link and a Luftampt under the front link.


Bolt- "Geladen" on extractors left side


Frame- Serial Number (55XXp) under the barrel, last 2 numbers are only found under


the takedown lever, inside the side plate,


on the top left of the trigger, Nowhere else. There also looks like an 'S'


with its center section missing just infront of the trigger guard.


Grips- Very thick walnut with larger checkering, inside both grips have a Wa-?65


waffenampt.


The weapon is in almost mint condition, with a little thinning to the blue and 60/70% of

the strawing present, Bore is like glass, Bright and well grooved.

I have looked at some books on the Wartime lugers and I can't find one with these markings.


If possible could you help me identifying this pistol.


Thanks in advance

[John D.]

While I don't have any reference books handy - I'll share with you what I think I know so far (sorry I missed this post earlier today - usually, I pick out "Krieghoff posts" pretty quickly on the Board I'll fill in some other info a little later tonight. As some know, personally, I rather enjoy Krieg's above some other the other Luger collectibles - but I have to tell you right up front - yours is indeed a little strange in some of the markings and their placement. That being said...


You wrote: "Barrel- Crown N laying on its side at the 11 o'clock position (looking from the chamber).." Yes - that would be correct on a few Krieg's - a commercial re-work (1920 and some of those in '23). This should be slightly larger then a DWM marked german Nitro proof typically found under the barrel or on the upright version of a '20 commercial (LH).


You Wrote: "A Luftampt 2 at the 1 o'clock position. No serial number on bottom of barrel.." What you are rerring to is a LWA2 acceptance marking, I believe (Luftwaffe Acceptance) - these did change in size and shape throughout the G, S, and chamber date struck Kriegs. If you have a photo - I could possibly determine the date of that proof for you...


You Wrote: "...Chamber- **** Here is the kicker- A Krieghoff logo (Anchor HK) and just Suhl under it.." ON THE CHAMBER??? I am not aware of any stamps that HK used on the chamber with their logo??? They should all be on the toggle - and again - with just SUHL - would be an early military stamping.. The transition to "KRIEGHOFF SUHL" was partway through the "late S" model - but again - this should be on the toggle..???


You Wrote: "...The same logo as on the 'S' code Krieghoffs (just not on the toggle..." OK - there are a variety of S codes - Early, Turkish production, Mid S, Transitional, Late S - all of them have slight variations to the logo you are referring to.....


You Wrote: "...Receiver- Crown N on its side (crown toward the barrel) No Serial number (left side).." Would also be correct for a rework or commercial.....


You Wrote: "...2 (Two) Luftampts on right side..." Would be correct - each was applied at various stages of acceptance - BUT not for commercial, for military - unless the Military accepted a commercial??..??


You Wrote: "...Toggle- Blank top and a "4" under the rear link and a Luftampt under the front link." Again - points to a commercial rework - some were blank toggles....


You Wrote: "...Bolt- "Geladen" on extractors left side.." this is correct....


You Wrote: "...Frame- Serial Number (55XXp) under the barrel, last 2 numbers are only found under the takedown lever, inside the side plate, on the top left of the trigger, Nowhere else." This would be correct.....


You Wrote:"...Grips- Very thick walnut with larger checkering, inside both grips have a Wa-?65 waffenampt..." I believe the Turkish contract (50 units *I think*!) had a very course grip pattern. Let me check tonight and see what I can dig out, OK???


You Wrote:"...I have looked at some books on the Wartime lugers and I can't find one with these markings.." Frankly - I'm not surprised. Most more gerneral Luger reference books simply copy parts of Gibson's books - if they cover them at all... Let me see what I can dig out for you on this - and refine or add to what I've written above...


The most interesting aspect is the Chamber marking - do you have a photo of that?? If it is original, then it could have been done by the Krieg factory as a special "presentation" or something similiar. If it can be verified, then your piece would be very unique...


Best to you - and welcome to the Board!!!


John D.

[John D.]

OK - just had a chance to check what I thought - and yes, I'm pretty sure what you have is a Military proofed Commercial... However...


The Chamber marking is very bizzare. After the war, there were several that had markings (or lack thereof) similiar to yours - no serial number on the left hand side, barrels that were pulled from stock that were not marked per Krieg production, etc. These were "spare parts" Lugers that were assembled after the war for GIs (not to be confused with PX Lugers). It is very possible that is when your chamber mark was struck and accounts for the non-standard marking/proofs.


However - this is speculation on my part until more info/pics can be posted..


Hope this helps - and I'll keep digging...:-)


BTW: Also - yes, the grips that you describe are from the Turkish contract as I stated (Very Early S period) - and were not used in other production runs. Again - this helps support that your piece is a post-war Krieg made from parts "on the shelf"...

[bob]

John,

Here is a pic of the Logo.




http://members.aol.com/dpyrm/logo.jpg

[bob]

John,

Here is one of the topside....




http://members.aol.com/dpyrm/top.jpg

[bob]

John,

Here is the right side, with the 2 Luftampts (?).....

The Luftampt on the barrel is the same as the 1st (left on PIC) one here.




http://members.aol.com/dpyrm/right.jpg

[bob]

as before.....here is the Crown 'N' on its side, you can see a little of the crown 'N' on the barrel.....




http://members.aol.com/dpyrm/left.jpg

[bob]

..............more




http://members.aol.com/dpyrm/rear.jpg

[John D.]

Thanks a million for posting this picture..!!


OK - there are only TWO dies that have a slanted "SUHL" as in your picture - both were used in 1935 and early 1936... However - the sword is incorrect for the 1st type and the 'U" is incorrect for the latter type. As well - both of these dies were used as Toggle dies however...


Therefore - I'm pretty darned sure this is a post-war production - and the chamber mark was added by a factory worker (assuming that it was brought back from germany this way - which you were told it was...)..


In any event - its a REALLY INTERESTING piece!!! Can you tell me - is there *anywhere* on the Luger (even on the right side under the grip) a "five pointed star"?


Thanks!!!


John D.

[bob]

Here is the full side view...Sorry about the Quality, my camera does not do good in macro!!




http://members.aol.com/dpyrm/full.jpg

[bob]

There are alot of markings, Nunbers and letters, But No star.

[John D.]

Just went through all the pictures - and everything matches exactly as it should.. It's a really interesting Krieg, to be sure. The finish looks outstanding as well - a very, very nice find and piece!!!


the reason I asked for the STAR was to see if this was originally a Military commercial (the star is the Military rejection stamp - so the gun went to commercial production...). Again, since it doesn't have that, it's most likely, again - a post war example. During that time - there were some interesting Kriegs - some were inscribed, some had STRAWED sideplates (huh??), some had alloy frames, etc. That's why a chamber stamp like yours is so interesting..!!!


Really, really nice!!! Now - DON'T SHOOT IT!!!

[bob]

John,

As you can see this thing does not conform to anything. Early ? Late? Post-War? and prank by a factory worker? I am going to Tulsa for the show in april and I thought I would bring it along as most of the Luger folks are there.....

I just think its neat as it can be traced to 1945. (If I take the story as fact)


Thanks alot for your help.


Bob

[bob]

This one stays in the safe..........

[John D.]

to see what others say - but your's started life (well the frame, anyway) as a military, then through the factory, as a P-code commercial (mid series). My guess is that the frame was complete, hence the internals (take down, etc) matching...


At the end of the war - the Luger was "finished" from spares - including the barrel (which could be a number of manufactures), the toggle - and the chamber mark was added..


The finish on these are sporadic- some are excellent while others are less the poor....


In any case - I'd have Ralph Shattuck ask Randall Gibson about it - he may be aware of "one offs" that were chamber marked as yours is...


Thanks for sharing this info - it's a thrill for all of us- Bob!!

Bob,


i don't know anything about Kreighoffs, but your sure is pretty and I would love to have one in the condition yours is in!


Marvin