New Guy needs help with a Krieg

Substandard · 12-27-2008, 11:20 PM

Another new guy needing help. The shop where I work recently got a Luger in on trade and we need some expert opinions.

Here is a link to some hi-res photos which describe the pistol better than I can with words.

http://s516.photobucket.com/albums/u321/definc/

It is a .30 caliber Luger. The pistol frame has a P 33 on the front and Nazi(?) proof mark on the front left and another proof mark on the front right. Inside the frame there is a number 623. The trigger is marked 53.

The barrel/slide assembly has Nazi proof and 33 stamped left front side and another on the bottom of the barrel. No other marking other than the safety.

The toggle has the Krieg mark and lifting the extractor up I can see something stamped on the extractor side. G E I maybe? That is all of the marks and numbers that I found during a quick field strip of the pistol.

Magazines do not match to the pistol. Grips are a black plastic (bake lite?) with no chips or damage. The pistol is 98% and appears to be the original finish.

The holster has a "cross" stamped into the leather (you can see it in the pics) that the owner told us was a maker's mark. There is also a person's name written in the flap.

The history of the piece is that it came back with a GI who kept it until he passed. The gun then went to the GI's son who sold it for money. The guy that bought it then sold it to us.

We paid $3,000 for the pistol. Any comments or suggestions? I appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks

Navy · 12-28-2008, 08:52 AM

You have a rare and valuable pistol. Please look at the inside back of the holster and see if it has an Eagle 2 proof...similar but larger than the one on the right front rail of the pistol. If present, that makes the holster original Luftwaffe issue. It is not a detractor if not present as the P-prefix on the serial number indicates this gun was rejected by the Luftwaffe and entered commercial commerce.

The very low serial number tells me the gun was probably made in 1934; likewise the caliber makes it "out of the ordinary".

Tom A

Hueydriver · 12-28-2008, 11:07 AM

My .002, What you have here is a P Code Series 2. A Krieghoff Commercial, made from the late contract series of pistols in the 11,000 to 12,000 military range. This pistol was likely produced in the 1942 to 1945 time frame. The pistol exibits the late eagle N proofs. On the right frame rail it exibits the late type LWaA acceptance stamp. Black plastic grips. Mr. Gibson states "it appears that very few of these commercial variants were produced since the highest recorded number is P86".

So like Tom say's you have a very valuable rig.

Congratulations!!

Jesse

lugerholsterrepair · 12-28-2008, 11:52 AM

Herr Substandart..I could see NO cross anywhere on your photo's. The lack of a maker mark and the fact that your holster is made with black thread lends some credibility to Tom's assertion that this is possibly a Luftwaffe marked holster. As he says..look carefully on the center portion of the inside panel. Look to the left and right corners too as there is sometimes a full maker mark there.

You are saying that the pistol is all matching save for the trigger? Have you looked over the small parts carefully for small Eagle 2's?

Jerry Burney

Substandard · 12-28-2008, 12:47 PM

Thanks for the replies so far.

I have added some more, and hopefully better images to my photobucket account. If you follow the link in my first post you will see them.

After closer examination the numbers on the inside of the trigger frame are 610 and the trigger is marked with a 53. The pictures show all the marks I have currently found. The bore is bright and shiny like it just left the factory, which helps me believe that the pistol has the original finish.

The holster has no stamps or markings other than the one shown below:

A small circular "cross" stamped on the inside edge of the flap.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-28-2008, 01:22 PM

Herr Substandart..I do not remember seeing the cross on another holster. Essentially meaningless. Certainly not a maker mark.

In your new photo showing thw P33 on the front of the frame there appears to be a marking or two on the front of the right side rail?

Any markings on the fireing pin/striker?

Jerry Burney

Substandard · 12-28-2008, 10:32 PM

I will get a picture of the front of the frame tomorrow. I forgot to take a close up of that one..

I haven't disassembled the toggle/bolt to check the firing pin. I will post a pic if I find any markings there.

As for the holster I can find no mark or stamp, but I will take another look.

Is there a reputable appraiser that we could pay look over the pistol and give us a idea on authenticity and value? Thanks to all for the help.

Tomathvl · 12-29-2008, 10:04 AM

http://www.simpsonltd.com/luger_appr...ae908a62074d1e

Substandard · 12-29-2008, 12:26 PM

A closer inspection of the inside of the holster revealed an Eagle 2 mark in the center.

The owner of the store where I work is going to send it out to Simpson Ltd. tomorrow for an appraisal. Thanks to everyone on the forum for the help.

Substandard · 01-09-2009, 01:01 PM

Just wanted to thank everyone on the forum for their help.

We just talked to Bob at Simpson LTD. and he confirms it is an authentic Krieghoff P with holster. Appraised value was set at $18,000 to $20,000.

We put it on consignment with Simpson, and it will be at a show this weekend in Kansas City.

Thanks again!

Navy · 01-09-2009, 01:13 PM

Congratulations!

Tom A

John Sabato · 01-09-2009, 05:42 PM

I am sure you can't tell us... but I would love to know what your shop gave for this gun in trade!

Mike B · 01-09-2009, 09:03 PM

John,
In his initial posting, he stated, "We paid $3,000 for the pistol."

Mike

Substandard · 01-10-2009, 03:13 PM

Mike is correct we paid $3,000.00

drbuster · 01-11-2009, 08:56 PM

Now you can get somewhat of a clue why luger collecting (if you have the knowledge and experience) can be more rewarding than the stock market. It's also great to clean and play and shoot them, which cannot be said of a stock certificate! Stock value can (and almost did) fall to zero but lugers (and other similar collectibles) retain intrinsic value. Hope you get to make more "hits" like this one!

John Sabato · 01-12-2009, 11:45 AM

Sorry guys... I missed the price paid in the first posting... I guess the profit will buy you guys lunch for the rest of the year, huh?

12-27-2008, 11:20 PM	#1
Substandard User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New Guy needs help with a Krieg Another new guy needing help. The shop where I work recently got a Luger in on trade and we need some expert opinions. Here is a link to some hi-res photos which describe the pistol better than I can with words. http://s516.photobucket.com/albums/u321/definc/ It is a .30 caliber Luger. The pistol frame has a P 33 on the front and Nazi(?) proof mark on the front left and another proof mark on the front right. Inside the frame there is a number 623. The trigger is marked 53. The barrel/slide assembly has Nazi proof and 33 stamped left front side and another on the bottom of the barrel. No other marking other than the safety. The toggle has the Krieg mark and lifting the extractor up I can see something stamped on the extractor side. G E I maybe? That is all of the marks and numbers that I found during a quick field strip of the pistol. Magazines do not match to the pistol. Grips are a black plastic (bake lite?) with no chips or damage. The pistol is 98% and appears to be the original finish. The holster has a "cross" stamped into the leather (you can see it in the pics) that the owner told us was a maker's mark. There is also a person's name written in the flap. The history of the piece is that it came back with a GI who kept it until he passed. The gun then went to the GI's son who sold it for money. The guy that bought it then sold it to us. We paid $3,000 for the pistol. Any comments or suggestions? I appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks

12-28-2008, 11:52 AM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Herr Substandart..I could see NO cross anywhere on your photo's. The lack of a maker mark and the fact that your holster is made with black thread lends some credibility to Tom's assertion that this is possibly a Luftwaffe marked holster. As he says..look carefully on the center portion of the inside panel. Look to the left and right corners too as there is sometimes a full maker mark there. You are saying that the pistol is all matching save for the trigger? Have you looked over the small parts carefully for small Eagle 2's? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-28-2008, 01:22 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Herr Substandart..I do not remember seeing the cross on another holster. Essentially meaningless. Certainly not a maker mark. In your new photo showing thw P33 on the front of the frame there appears to be a marking or two on the front of the right side rail? Any markings on the fireing pin/striker? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-09-2009, 05:42 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I am sure you can't tell us... but I would love to know what your shop gave for this gun in trade! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-12-2009, 11:45 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Sorry guys... I missed the price paid in the first posting... I guess the profit will buy you guys lunch for the rest of the year, huh? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-28-2008, 08:52 AM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	You have a rare and valuable pistol. Please look at the inside back of the holster and see if it has an Eagle 2 proof...similar but larger than the one on the right front rail of the pistol. If present, that makes the holster original Luftwaffe issue. It is not a detractor if not present as the P-prefix on the serial number indicates this gun was rejected by the Luftwaffe and entered commercial commerce. The very low serial number tells me the gun was probably made in 1934; likewise the caliber makes it "out of the ordinary". Tom A

12-28-2008, 11:07 AM	#3
Hueydriver User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North Dakota Posts: 66 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	My .002, What you have here is a P Code Series 2. A Krieghoff Commercial, made from the late contract series of pistols in the 11,000 to 12,000 military range. This pistol was likely produced in the 1942 to 1945 time frame. The pistol exibits the late eagle N proofs. On the right frame rail it exibits the late type LWaA acceptance stamp. Black plastic grips. Mr. Gibson states "it appears that very few of these commercial variants were produced since the highest recorded number is P86". So like Tom say's you have a very valuable rig. Congratulations!! Jesse

12-28-2008, 12:47 PM	#5
Substandard User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the replies so far. I have added some more, and hopefully better images to my photobucket account. If you follow the link in my first post you will see them. After closer examination the numbers on the inside of the trigger frame are 610 and the trigger is marked with a 53. The pictures show all the marks I have currently found. The bore is bright and shiny like it just left the factory, which helps me believe that the pistol has the original finish. The holster has no stamps or markings other than the one shown below: A small circular "cross" stamped on the inside edge of the flap.

12-28-2008, 10:32 PM	#7
Substandard User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will get a picture of the front of the frame tomorrow. I forgot to take a close up of that one.. I haven't disassembled the toggle/bolt to check the firing pin. I will post a pic if I find any markings there. As for the holster I can find no mark or stamp, but I will take another look. Is there a reputable appraiser that we could pay look over the pistol and give us a idea on authenticity and value? Thanks to all for the help.

12-29-2008, 10:04 AM	#8
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	http://www.simpsonltd.com/luger_appr...ae908a62074d1e

12-29-2008, 12:26 PM	#9
Substandard User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A closer inspection of the inside of the holster revealed an Eagle 2 mark in the center. The owner of the store where I work is going to send it out to Simpson Ltd. tomorrow for an appraisal. Thanks to everyone on the forum for the help.

01-09-2009, 01:01 PM	#10
Substandard User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just wanted to thank everyone on the forum for their help. We just talked to Bob at Simpson LTD. and he confirms it is an authentic Krieghoff P with holster. Appraised value was set at $18,000 to $20,000. We put it on consignment with Simpson, and it will be at a show this weekend in Kansas City. Thanks again!

01-09-2009, 01:13 PM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Congratulations! Tom A

01-09-2009, 09:03 PM	#13
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	John, In his initial posting, he stated, "We paid $3,000 for the pistol." Mike

01-10-2009, 03:13 PM	#14
Substandard User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mike is correct we paid $3,000.00

01-11-2009, 08:56 PM	#15
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Now you can get somewhat of a clue why luger collecting (if you have the knowledge and experience) can be more rewarding than the stock market. It's also great to clean and play and shoot them, which cannot be said of a stock certificate! Stock value can (and almost did) fall to zero but lugers (and other similar collectibles) retain intrinsic value. Hope you get to make more "hits" like this one!