1914 Luger Ammo

Piet · 08-23-2009, 03:24 PM

I include a few photos of 9mm ammunition
Can anybody tell me a bit more about the various numbers. I know that the "S" means Spandau.
Piet

Vlim · 08-23-2009, 04:07 PM

Hi Piet,

Quite simple, actually. The 2 is the lot number, 14 the year (1914) and S is indeed the Spandau arsenal. The pistol rounds have the bullet shape which was standard until somewhere in 1917, when the change to the familiar conical bullet was made.

The base descriptoin (2-14-S) only refers to the brass, not to the entire cartridge. The box gives more detail about the factory that assembled the components into live rounds and will show:

-The assembly plant. (... Munitionsfabrik, can't read the first letter).
-The powder type.
-The primer source (zdh from 'Zündhütchen'). In this case made in 1913 by Spandau.
-The case source. Again, Spandau.
-The bullet source. ('M')

Piet · 08-23-2009, 04:15 PM

Thanks Vlim, I include a previous photo of the box.
Piet

Vlim · 08-23-2009, 04:23 PM

Piet,

Aha. That's better.

Made in march, 1914 at 'Munitionsfabrik' (munitions plant, a bit vague). Since both the abbreviations 'S' and 'M' are used, I think that in this case 2 state plants were involved in production. Spandau and the 'Munitionsfabrik' (or 'M'), whatever location that may have been.

1914 - 1916 pistol ammunition is pretty rare. Most found today is 1917, with some 1918.

Ron Wood · 08-23-2009, 06:13 PM

Piet,
That is a wonderful box of ammunition. I would almost (notice I said "almost"

) sacrifice a kneecap to own such a marvelous example. The magazines are also outstanding.

Aaron · 08-23-2009, 10:57 PM

You must have hand polished each of those cartridges!

Piet · 08-24-2009, 04:29 PM

Hand polished is the right word. I was looking around for something that would not damage anything. I decided beforehand, I would not use Brasso - had enough of that in the army. The cartridges had dark stains, and I was afraid to use anything aggressive.
So I used Turtle Wax car polish. No hard rubbing-only soft hands! I enclose a "before"
Piet

Piet · 08-24-2009, 04:33 PM

The "before"
Piet

Ice · 08-24-2009, 05:40 PM

Turtle Wax! Thats a brilliant idea; won't damage the brass and keeps them looking great for a long, long time. I wouldn't have thought of that.

Charlie

Aaron · 08-24-2009, 06:36 PM

A numismatist would call you a clumsy brute for removing the original patina. I wonder if cartridge collectors would approve of brass polishing. As for me, I think it looks great!

Vlim · 08-24-2009, 07:11 PM

Patina is after all a fancy word for 'dirty'.

9x19 para rounds are not exactly archeological treasures, so I'd clean them if they were dirty enough and there was no danger of removing laquer, seals or markings.

Good idea on the wax job. Have to try that one!

Piet · 08-25-2009, 03:03 PM

As I am not in the buying and selling (yet?) of artifacts, my only object is to preserve for another century and the future generations, and the money-worth is not a factor(yet?). I am aware of the danger of changing or "upgrading" by mechanically removing or adding and I will definately won't be part of it. The key words for me are "clean" and "preserve".
I do however have high respect for members that do feel different.
Thanks for the positive comments
Piet

Aaron · 08-25-2009, 04:00 PM

It is nice to see what fresh ammo looked like to the soldiers back in WWI.

Gibcity · 08-26-2009, 02:25 PM

Where would one find this type of ammo?

(My Luger is dated 1914 and having at least one of these rounds would be great)

jonnyc · 08-26-2009, 03:02 PM

I'm a serious cartridge collector, and yes, we usually hate to see rounds polished. In this case, they do look nice for display next to a contemporary pistol.

Vlim · 08-26-2009, 03:27 PM

Gibcity,

The best way is to check out the IAA, the cartridge collectors organization (www.cartridgecollectors.org).

Their forum is offline at the moment, though.

jonnyc · 08-26-2009, 05:42 PM

Yes Vlim, you are right! Over there I'm "Jon C."

Vlim · 08-26-2009, 05:57 PM

I'm suffering from withdrawal with the IAA site down

Let's hope it will be back on line soon.

suum cuique · 08-26-2009, 06:45 PM

do those cartridges have a much 'softer' load than the ammo from WW2 ?
I have a 1937 S/42 and I am scared to use modern ammo. A gun dealer recommended 9mm +P+ ammo, because of the mechanismn of the luger.
but I am really scared to blow off the gun.

Vlim · 08-26-2009, 07:59 PM

Hi, shooting +P+ or +P in a luger will do it more harm than good. A pretty bad advice from that gun dealer.

The difference between the older ammunition and the modern one is the composition of the powder used, which results in a different pressure curve. Old 9x19 uses a slower burning powder.

Modern 9x19 Winchester (115gr) and S&B (124gr) should work fine in your S/42. The OAL (overall average length) is slightly longer than the SAAMI specified OAL, which helps to reduce feeding issues.

I've been shooting S&B 124gr for years in a 1937 S/42.

Sometimes people try to address technical problems (like bad magazines and worn springs) by using overpowered ammunition. The best thing to do is to make sure the gun, magazines and springs are up to specs and shoot ammunition that is tried and tested in these guns.

08-23-2009, 03:24 PM	#1
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	1914 Luger Ammo I include a few photos of 9mm ammunition Can anybody tell me a bit more about the various numbers. I know that the "S" means Spandau. Piet Attached Thumbnails

08-23-2009, 04:15 PM	#3
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Thanks Vlim, I include a previous photo of the box. Piet Attached Thumbnails

08-23-2009, 06:13 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Piet, That is a wonderful box of ammunition. I would almost (notice I said "almost") sacrifice a kneecap to own such a marvelous example. The magazines are also outstanding. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-24-2009, 04:33 PM	#8
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	The "before" Piet Attached Thumbnails

08-26-2009, 06:45 PM	#19
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	do those cartridges have a much 'softer' load than the ammo from WW2 ? I have a 1937 S/42 and I am scared to use modern ammo. A gun dealer recommended 9mm +P+ ammo, because of the mechanismn of the luger. but I am really scared to blow off the gun. Last edited by suum cuique; 11-07-2009 at 11:05 PM. Reason: typo

08-23-2009, 04:07 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Piet, Quite simple, actually. The 2 is the lot number, 14 the year (1914) and S is indeed the Spandau arsenal. The pistol rounds have the bullet shape which was standard until somewhere in 1917, when the change to the familiar conical bullet was made. The base descriptoin (2-14-S) only refers to the brass, not to the entire cartridge. The box gives more detail about the factory that assembled the components into live rounds and will show: -The assembly plant. (... Munitionsfabrik, can't read the first letter). -The powder type. -The primer source (zdh from 'Zündhütchen'). In this case made in 1913 by Spandau. -The case source. Again, Spandau. -The bullet source. ('M')

08-23-2009, 04:23 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Piet, Aha. That's better. Made in march, 1914 at 'Munitionsfabrik' (munitions plant, a bit vague). Since both the abbreviations 'S' and 'M' are used, I think that in this case 2 state plants were involved in production. Spandau and the 'Munitionsfabrik' (or 'M'), whatever location that may have been. 1914 - 1916 pistol ammunition is pretty rare. Most found today is 1917, with some 1918.

08-23-2009, 10:57 PM	#6
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	You must have hand polished each of those cartridges!

08-24-2009, 04:29 PM	#7
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Hand polished is the right word. I was looking around for something that would not damage anything. I decided beforehand, I would not use Brasso - had enough of that in the army. The cartridges had dark stains, and I was afraid to use anything aggressive. So I used Turtle Wax car polish. No hard rubbing-only soft hands! I enclose a "before" Piet

08-24-2009, 05:40 PM	#9
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Turtle Wax! Thats a brilliant idea; won't damage the brass and keeps them looking great for a long, long time. I wouldn't have thought of that. Charlie

08-24-2009, 06:36 PM	#10
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	A numismatist would call you a clumsy brute for removing the original patina. I wonder if cartridge collectors would approve of brass polishing. As for me, I think it looks great!

08-24-2009, 07:11 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Patina is after all a fancy word for 'dirty'. 9x19 para rounds are not exactly archeological treasures, so I'd clean them if they were dirty enough and there was no danger of removing laquer, seals or markings. Good idea on the wax job. Have to try that one!

08-25-2009, 03:03 PM	#12
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	As I am not in the buying and selling (yet?) of artifacts, my only object is to preserve for another century and the future generations, and the money-worth is not a factor(yet?). I am aware of the danger of changing or "upgrading" by mechanically removing or adding and I will definately won't be part of it. The key words for me are "clean" and "preserve". I do however have high respect for members that do feel different. Thanks for the positive comments Piet

08-25-2009, 04:00 PM	#13
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	It is nice to see what fresh ammo looked like to the soldiers back in WWI.

08-26-2009, 02:25 PM	#14
Gibcity User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 29 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Where would one find this type of ammo? (My Luger is dated 1914 and having at least one of these rounds would be great)

08-26-2009, 03:02 PM	#15
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	I'm a serious cartridge collector, and yes, we usually hate to see rounds polished. In this case, they do look nice for display next to a contemporary pistol.

08-26-2009, 03:27 PM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Gibcity, The best way is to check out the IAA, the cartridge collectors organization (www.cartridgecollectors.org). Their forum is offline at the moment, though.

08-26-2009, 05:42 PM	#17
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	Yes Vlim, you are right! Over there I'm "Jon C."

08-26-2009, 05:57 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	I'm suffering from withdrawal with the IAA site down Let's hope it will be back on line soon.

08-26-2009, 07:59 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, shooting +P+ or +P in a luger will do it more harm than good. A pretty bad advice from that gun dealer. The difference between the older ammunition and the modern one is the composition of the powder used, which results in a different pressure curve. Old 9x19 uses a slower burning powder. Modern 9x19 Winchester (115gr) and S&B (124gr) should work fine in your S/42. The OAL (overall average length) is slightly longer than the SAAMI specified OAL, which helps to reduce feeding issues. I've been shooting S&B 124gr for years in a 1937 S/42. Sometimes people try to address technical problems (like bad magazines and worn springs) by using overpowered ammunition. The best thing to do is to make sure the gun, magazines and springs are up to specs and shoot ammunition that is tried and tested in these guns.