More info on Finnish Lugers

Michael E Halbrook had posted some questions on a Finnish Luger, and I just wanted to follow up with some info.


The gun is a Tikkakoski re-barreled Luger. It originated as a DWM 1920 commercial model in .30 cal.


I do not think the date was â??ground offâ?�. I believe there were no dates on the guns when originally purchased. My gun, an original, non-import M23, does not have a chamber date, and there is no evidence that there ever was one or that it was ground off.


The black plastic grips were/are correct, as they were arsenal replacements from the Finns. The dull black finish, as well as the 9mm Tika barrel and mismatched parts indicates a very standard arsenal rework by the Finns.


Other posters (Tom) are correct in that these guns were imported directly from Finland in the mid 1980â??s.


Addording to Markku Palokangas, the noted Finnish firearms expert, the Finns purchased about 8,000 of these pistols for the army in the 1920â??s and some were imported for the Civil Guard and commercial sales. Importation ceased in the late 1930â??s with the introduction of the L-35 Lahti pistol. The M23 Luger was the most widely used pistol by the Finns in WWII. Their total number was reduced by about half during the wars (Winter War 39-40, Contention War 41-44, and Lapland War 1944). An army inventory in 1951 showed 3,724 pistols in service. The M23 was not withdrawn from service until the 1980â??s. A few remaining examples were selected for museum pieces and the rest sold for export.


In addition to the M23, the Finns also had the 9mm â??P-08â?� in service. These came along with the Finnish Jaegers trained in Germany in 1915-18 who returned to Finland during its fight for independence in the winter of 1918. It was these pistols that prompted the Finnish army to adopt the M23. In 1939, a small batch of the P-08â??s were purchased from Belgium.

[Kyrie]

Hi Robert,


I don't know about all of the first contract Finnish Lugers (the 8,000 purchased in 1923), but at least some had refurbished WWI parts used in their manufacture. The one I submitted pictures of for the Owners' Corner had a date (or something) over the chamber ground off. In those pistols where the date was completely removed the only way to tell a date ever existed is to examine the receiver ring to see if it is out of round due to material removal. The 1923 Finn pictured in the Owners Corner has had so much material removed from the receiver ring that the top of the receiver ring is almost flat.


As an aside, there is a scan of the advertisement for the Finn M23 Luger pictured in the Owners' Corner as the last image in that display. Here is a similar period ad, but for M23's converted to 9 mm Parabellum by the Finns.


Hope this helps.


Best regards,


Kyrie






http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Finn_pistols.jpg

[Michael E Halbrook]

Thanks for the additional info on my Finnish Luger.

I believe a chamber date was removed because the upper

receiver is out of round over the chamber.

Somewhere along the line the rear sight was widened

out to a square notch.

I installed a P-38 front sight to match (retaining the

original of course).


Best Regards,


Mike Halbrook

The bulk of the lugers purchased by Finland in 1923 were new post WW1 production blank chamber commericals. I've seen somewhere a few that had an intricate cartucosh added to the chamber by the Finnish prison system. Perhaps yours was one of these, before being removed for surplus sale.

[Kyrie]

Hi Tom,


I don't know, that sounds like quite a reach


Seriously, it's my opinion that folks take "new production" to mean all new parts a little too literally. Germany, in the 1920's, was just about awash in Lugers and Luger parts. These parts and old Lugers were used in the production of "new" pistols to a degree that's difficult to really appreciate. The 1923 Finn Luger of mine is an example of new production using old parts. Eventually I'll also have posted photos of a 1923 Commercial that also has a ground barrel extension, indicting a date (or something, but most likely a date) was removed. The 1923 Commercial Lugers, like the 1923 Finn contract Lugers, were "new production" pistols.


DWM/Mauser/et. al. were thrifty people, and generally didn't expend the time or money to make up new parts when old ones were laying around not being used. We see this same pattern of the use of old parts in the production of the C96's. Existing stocks of old style parts continued to be used long after they had become obsolete, making for relatively long transitional periods between variations. For Lugers, this practice blurs the line between refurbished pistols and new production pistols. The difference between these is frequently a matter of degree rather than kind :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie

First of all, please forgive me for my limited knowledge of the Luger as a whole, for my interest is really in the Finnish military weapons.


As indicated, and to the best of my knowledge, the M23â??s purchased by the Finns were new production (and I understand Kyrieâ??s point on what is â??newâ?�) 1920 Commercial DWM .30 cal with the Versailles treaty stipulated sub 4â?� barrel. From the research that I have done and the data I have found, they did not have dates and were all matching. Being somewhat limited in my knowledge of Lugers, I donâ??t know if some/all/part of the 1920 Commercial DWM .30 cal came without date and matching numbers.


The .30 that I have does not have a date and I am not sure it ever did. If it did, whoever ground it off did a superb job of it, for it is polished and seems to have the original finish on it. In inspecting the gun, all the numbers match.


As I sort of alluded to earlier, the Finns were very practical in their weapons. Being a small country and not having a truly large weapons industry, they made due where they could. This included using all sorts of captured weapons as well as purchasing/receiving what many people would consider â??inferiorâ?� weapons (i.e. Italian M-38 Carcanos, French Chauchat MGâ??s, etc.). They were also very industrious in maintaining the weapons they had. This is evidenced by their ability to refurbish, remanufacture and manufacture Mosin Nagant rifles. As this relates to the Lugers, it is exemplified in the eventual mismatched parts and dull â??phosphateâ?� finish and the new barrels to the more powerful 9mm. Additionally, since there were German troops in Northern Finland during the war, I am sure that many of those Lugers ended up in the Finnish inventory.


Anyhow, thanks for the exchange, it has been most pleasant and informative.


Robert C.


P.S. I will see if I can get some shots to the M23 and Finn marked P08 I have.