WW2 Navy Lugers??

[Enigma]

It might be a silly question but were all navy Lugers used in WW2 “N” or “O” marked?? I know it was common practise to mark everything that was a part of the ships equipment. But what if it was never used on sea duty??

Kind regards
Enigma

[Ron Smith]

Hi,and Welcome to the forum.

The Navy property marking ceased in mid-1940, Jan Still's "Third Reich Lugers" page 107 states that post 1940 production Mauser Lugers are indistinguishable from Army issues from mid-1940 onward.

Ron

[Enigma]

1. Lugers manufactured before mid 1940 all had navy markings if I understand correct.
2. What about the "N" or "O" inventory markings?? I suppose they are not on all the Lugers that has navy markings then??
Bård

[Ron Smith]

The Nordsee and Ostsee markings are what I was referring to by "property marks".

Most, if not all had some type of marking indicating Navy use prior to 1940. Some had an Eagle / M or Eagle / Anchor pantographed on the side panel or grip strap. Many had the N. or O. property mark in addition to these markings. Weimar reworked Imperial Navy Lugers will often retain the small Crown / M proofs, and the 1917 frame date.

Ron

[Enigma]

Thanks a lot for answering my questions. I am not so well into WW1 Lugers and I guess all these are well marked. But the WW2 ones I find a bit puzzling. This might be rhetorical and I might be wrong but as I have learned it the ”N” nordsee and ”O” ostsee markings were given by Marinewaffenamt as items that were their responsibility were handed over from them to any ship that were requisitioning them to fulfil their inventory. They did this to keep track of what they had as serial numbers alone will be a nightmare in the end.

1.If I understand this right there are no special markings from Mauser that will be 100% waterproof evidence that it was made for the navy?

2.Are there any special serial sequences that are allocated for navy guns?

3.Markings were added by Marinewaffenamt and there is no sure way to know if the markings are not added by someone with the right tools later.

4. If the local Marinewaffenamt did not feel like engraving navy eagles they were handed out as is. (If they were not a part of a ships inventory).

Bård

[Ron Smith]

1.If I understand this right there are no special markings from Mauser that will be 100% waterproof evidence that it was made for the navy?

Correct, not after mid-1940.

2.Are there any special serial sequences that are allocated for navy guns?

I do not know of any specific Serial Number blocks. Approximate quantities procured by the Navy according to Still's Third Reich Lugers, 1940;3000...1941;3000...1942;2500 for a total of 8500 Lugers.

3.Markings were added by Marinewaffenamt and there is no sure way to know if the markings are not added by someone with the right tools later.

Markings were applied by Navy armorers. Most were applied with a pantograph machine. If the markings are stamped or engraved, it should be considered suspect. Although I have seen markings that appear to be crudely engraved, that were declared by collector(s) to be legitimate.

4. If the local Marinewaffenamt did not feel like engraving navy eagles they were handed out as is. (If they were not a part of a ships inventory).

The order to cease marking was issued mid-1940. It's possible that some were marked after, but not likely. The markings were applied by the base armories at Wilhelmshaven Ostsee Station, or Kiel Nordsee Station, for issue to Vessels as well as Naval ground forces at those respective stations.

Our resident Navy expert is currently ill. And I am basing my reply on what I have learned from him, and Jan Still's "Third Reich Lugers". As well as my own meager knowledge on the Navy Lugers.

Ron

[Enigma]

Well if the navy expert is indisposed at the moment we will just have to wait. The conclusions I draw so far for the WW2 naval Lugers are:

1.Only the total number acquired from Mauser each year exists. Serial numbers are not known.

2.No special proof/inspection marks were made by Mauser.

3.The only naval markings that exist are applied by Marinewaffenamt.

4.No Luger with production date after mid-1940 with naval eagle engravings should exist. (Unless it is a forgery)

Now some new questions emerge around the markings.

A: Are the “N”/“O” markings only applied in Kiel or Wilhelmshafen? What about all the other naval stations from La Rochelle to Trondheim. Or even the “Marine Zeug Amt” and all its branches? These depots did resupply all the equipment needed. Did they apply “N”/ “O” markings? My guess is that they did not.

B: The variations that seem to exist in the naval eagles both in the way they look and where they are applied might indicate that they were not made at two facilities only?

Did local armourers apply them to Lugers that were designated for a special purpose? Or were they applied to ALL lugers? Do all these Lugers have “N”/ “O” markings?

Were these eagles applied when they were put in storage or when handed out? As far as I know there were untouched never issued WW1 Lugers were in storage even in 1945. They had no additional markings.

Regards
Bård

[klaus 3338]

Hi Bard,
your location is up north- what´s that?

There could be said a lot of "informations" but my English is not the best- so only short answeres:

2. Mauser itself did never stuck proof or inspector stamps- the WaA made these in order of the German Government.

A. N and O markings are fiscal markings- these should help to "manage" the guns.

B. You are on the wrong track- the eagles are part of an Abnahmestempel (I have a black out; I can´t remember the English word for Abnahmestempel- Inspector stamp?).

I would wonder if there would have been untouched never issued WW1 Lugers in 1945 whereever in the world.

Sorry for my poor English

Regards Klaus

[klaus 3338]

Hi Bard,
your location is up north- what´s that?

There could be said a lot of "informations" but my English is not the best- so only short answeres:

2. Mauser itself did never stuck proof or inspector stamps- the WaA made these in order of the German Government.

A. N and O markings are fiscal markings- these should help to "manage" the guns.

B. You are on the wrong track- the eagles are part of an Abnahmestempel (I have a black out; I can´t remember the English word for Abnahmestempel- Inspector stamp?).

I would wonder if there would have been untouched never issued WW1 Lugers in 1945 whereever in the world.

Sorry for my poor English

Regards Klaus

[Ron Wood]

Abnahmestempel = Acceptance stamp?

[suum cuique]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Abnahmestempel = Acceptance stamp?

Ron, yes this is correct.

[klaus 3338]

Ron and Andy Thanks!
According German archives got the Navy monthly 250 P08 during the WWII.

[Enigma]

Hi Klaus

My location is the northern part of Norway.
Hmmmm. Conclusion so far:

1.The WW2 naval lugers have no proof/inspection stamps applied when manufactured at the Mauser plant. The navy receives their share of 250 units a month from the production line.

2.I still do not know if the N/O markings were made on all the lugers the navy receives. The reason I ask is that I collect naval optics and only the ones that actually was a part of a ships inventory received such a number. Optics was also a part of Marinewaffenamt. A lot of WW2 navy optics can be found without these numbers.

3.Abnahmestempel? When inspected by a naval officer and given a green light it was marked with a naval eagle? Or was it a property mark engraved when they handed it out?

4.When it comes to old unissued equipment there still was some in storage at the end of WW2. It was just stacked behind all the other lugers. It is now almost a century ago and there are still some very excellent specimens out there.

Regards
Bård

[klaus 3338]

Hi Brad, I thought so- Norway the nicest country in Europe with exception of Germany off course.

I remember some nice days in Ackerhus, the Norwegian Army Museum and the Navy one in Tonsberg, too. I stayed in the public room of the Museum and was allowed to study some stuff in the non public rooms of the Museum. On one day I looked for 6 hours all the Luger magazines- there were many thousands and I “studied” each only for some seconds. On the next days I looked over the holsters, 8 hours, the whole day- nice stuff there!

I saw photos of the old Museum which was bombed in 1945- that was very impressive.

I have some good old friends in Norway.

2. The N and O property marks were added to the Lugers until mid 1942. The no. 2025g got with N 4910 is the highest property number I know to exist. In Still´s Third Reich Luger is a good summary of serial ranges. I think I remember that in one year of the summary is a mistake of the suffix by misspelling the German letter.

3. Abnahmestempel or acceptance stamps were stuck by officers in order of the German Government (in this kind the Navy, but this practice was the same in the Army, Luftwaffe and Police and also in the Imperial time). I thought about writing about this on Jan Stills side some weeks ago but my English is not good enough to declare what I want to say.
The property stamps are fiscal stamps of the Navy and have nothing to do with the acceptance stamps.
Same with the Imperial or Police property stamps- also fiscal stamps.

Regards Klaus

[Enigma]

Hi Klaus

Thank you so much for your kind words about my country. I enjoy being in Germany and have always felt welcome there.

My conclusions are:

1.Abnahmestempel/navy eagle was added to all lugers received prior to mid 1940.

2.N/O markings were used until mid 1942.

The only loose end for me now is if N/O markings were applied to all naval lugers or if it was exclusively for lugers that were a part of a ships armory.

Regards
Bård