Mauser, Luger, Görtz ...

[mauro]

Dear Fellows,
Probably you remind that a few months ago I had the privilege of buying, from Mr. Reinhard Kornmayer, two original Georg Luger letters exchanged between George Luger and Paul Mauser in 1892, related to the “Mannlicher Gewehr” business.
The below letter from Mr. Kornmayer is summarizing the origin of these two G.L. letters.

A couple of months after this letter, Mr. Kornmayer gave to me the possibility to buy also the second letter to keep them together.

Mr. Kornmayer is mentioning two additional archives, the Görtz archive and the copy of the George Luger documentation from the Mauser family archive.

Mr. Kornmayer gave to me the possibility of buying the Görtz photographical archive, composed by 32 different folders.

This huge archive has been collected by Mr. Görtz over 30 years and it contains hundreds of original historical photos from WWI and WWII and professional-made pictures of Luger pistols, accessories, holsters and so on...

To each photo in the archive it is associated a hand-written comment from Mr. Görtz explaining the reason why the photo is interesting and merit to be added to the archive.

The total amount of documents is around 3000 photos plus the related explanation/note from Mr. Görtz.

The pictures related to the Luger pistols are all made professionally, mainly black and white.

It is evident the effort made by Mr. Görtz to create and maintain this archive.

Mr. Görtz used most of these photos and related information in his book “Die Pistole 08” and in articles written for several magazines.

In addition to this acquisition, Mr. Kornmayer allows me to do one additional copy of his Luger personal archive containing the original Luger documents collected during the researches made with Mr. Görtz and mentioned in the above letter.

This archive is composed by 8 folders containing a few thousands copies of the original George Luger and Paul Mauser letters and patents; plus all the letters exchanged between the Mauser and Luger lawyers when the dispute between Mauser and Luger started in 1897.

A couple of folders are dedicated to letters exchanged by Luger with Swiss representatives for the Parabellum.

In particular, this archive contains all the letters exchanged between Luger and Mauser concerning the “Mannlicher Gewehr” business from where the two original letters I have presented to you a few months ago are extracted.

It is definitely important for me have the possibility to associate to the two original Luger letters, the copies of all the others referring to the “Mannlicher Gewehr” business; to have a clear picture of the context.

People interested in the two original Luger letters can refer to my web site where several pages are dedicated to this topic.

(http://www.lugerlp08.com)

I really want to thank Mr. Kornmayer for the unique opportunity he gave to me for the acquisition of all these documents.

All my best,

Mauro

[Ron Smith]

Mauro,

Wow! You are now the keeper of the "Grail". That's outstanding!

Ron

[Ice]

It is certainly an honor to be allowed to be custodian of such wonderful historical documents.

Charlie

[alvin]

Most interest in folder #18 "verschiedene pistolen". It's interesting to note P38 falling into miscellaneous section.

[lfid]

Mauro ,

absolute zero cool !!!

thanks for sharing

congratulations on acquisition

Bill

[Don M]

Mauro, you have a priceless treasure. It is good to know it is in the hands of someone who will care for it.

[mauro]

Hello all,
Thank you for the kind words.

I am adding this piece of information from Mr. Kornmayer just to clarify who is Mr. Görtz.

The researches made by these two gentlemen are a milestone for all the Luger enthusiast.

Cheers,
Mauro

[klaus 3338]

Ich habe lange gezögert und überlegt, ob ich in diesem Fall meine Gefühle und Bedenken zum Ausdruck bringen soll, aber die in seinem Buch niedergeschriebene Aussagen von Joachim Görtz selbst, als auch meine persönlichen Erinnerungen an ihn, haben letztendlich den Ausschlag gegeben.

Auch wenn ich Gefahr laufe, evtl. alle vorhandenen Sympathien zu verspielen, so muss ich doch anmerken, dass ich einen gewissen Schmerz verspürt habe, als ich hier davon lesen musste, dass ein Teil des persönlichen Archives von Joachim Görtz in die Hände eines privaten Sammlers, auch wenn er außerhalb jeglicher Kritik dastehen mag, übergegangen ist. Einen ähnlichen Vorgang, nämlich den letztendlichen Verlust der privaten Notizbücher des ehemaligen Betriebsleiters von Mauser, August Weiss, an einen sehr bekannten deutschen Waffen- Sachverständigen (H. B. Lockhoven) hat Joachim Görtz in seinem Buch „Die Pistole 08“ schon auf Seiten 24 ff bedauert.

Es geht hier nicht um Neid- jeder der mich auch nur ein bisschen kennt, weiß um meine Freude hinsichtlich schöner Dinge in anderen, als meinen Händen, nein, Archivmaterial wie dieses, selbst wenn es sich „nur“ um das Fotoarchiv handelt, gehört in die Hände aller (!) Sammler, nicht der „besseren“ Sammler, sondern aller, auch der Anfänger, ja gerade dieser, denn wie sonst wollen wir den dringend benötigten Nachwuchs fördern und fordern.
Leider ist die Dokumentenlage für den uns interessierenden Bereich in Deutschland nach dem verlorenen Weltkrieg bemitleidenswert dürftig, da die Unterlagen größtenteils verloren gingen. Umso wichtiger ist es, dass so herausragendes Material, wie das von Görtz zusammengestellte, der breiten Masse der Sammler zur Verfügung steht. Kein Sammler oder Sachverständiger allein ist zudem in der Lage, die Bedeutung des Archivmaterials zu erkennen, geschweige denn zu verstehen und schon gar nicht zu bearbeiten; dafür sind viele Kräfte und sehr viel Zeit nötig.

Auch wenn ich mit Joachim Görtz über Jahre in Verbindung stand, so kannte ihn der mit ihm befreundete Reinhard Kornmayer selbstverständlich besser als der unbedeutende Klaus, aber hinsichtlich der Görtz unterstellten Freude „plagen“ mich bei dieser Aussage doch gewisse Zweifel.


Abschließend soll eine kleine Anekdote verdeutlichen, dass Joachim Görtz eine Zeit lang ein etwas gespanntes Verhältnis zu mir hatte: Er hatte mir gegenüber erwähnt, dass seine 08- Pistole, mit der er häufig den Schießstand besuchte, einen schwammigen Abzug hätte, der weit entfernt von der von ihm gerühmten Qualität der von Schweizer Büchsenmachern getrimmten Abzügen läge. Ich machte mich für die gute Arbeit meines hiesigen Büchsenmachers und Kunden stark und vermittelte zwischen den beiden. Es kam zum Auftrag und damit geriet ich in die Schusslinie- die beiden konnten sich selbst über die große Entfernung hin von Anfang an nicht leiden. Görtz muss dem Büchsenmacher etwas gesagt haben, was diesen wiederum veranlasste, Görtz als Schreiberling zu betiteln. Meine Bemühungen um einen beschleunigten Ablauf der Arbeiten wurden schlichtweg untergraben; der Büchsenmacher hielt zwar Wort und Görtz bekam seine 08 mit perfektem Abzug wieder, aber alles dauerte Wochen. Und es hat Monate gedauert, bis sich die Wogen glätteten, aber manchmal konnte ich mich des Eindruck nicht erwehren, dass der verehrte Joachim Görtz mir in seinem Frust nie richtig verzeihen konnte, dass ich in seinen Augen zu wenig Druck auf den Büchsenmacher ausgeübt hatte.

[klaus 3338]

Ich "unterstelle" bzw. bei manchen Mitgliedern bin ich mir sicher, dass Sie zumindest so gut Deutsch beherrschen, dass eine Übersetzung des vorangegangenen Textes kein Problem darstellt. So bitte ich höflich um ein bisschen Hilfe in Form der Übersetzung.
Dafür sei jetzt schon herzlichst gedankt.
Klaus

[Vlim]

I'll work on it

OK, this is roughly it. Not a word by word translation, but it should get the message across.

I doubted long and hard about revealing my feelings and thoughts about this, but the thought about the notes that Joachim Görtz never published in his book as well as my own personal memories about him have made me decide to do so.

Even when it means that there is a certain danger that I will lose all credit here, I have to say that it hurt me to see that a part of the personal archive of Joachim Görtz has ended up in the hands of a private collector, although this is by no means unacceptable in it’s own right. A similar thing happened before, the loss of the private notebooks of the former small arms foreman of Mauser, August Weiss, to a well known German gun expert (H.B. Lockhoven) was described in Joachim Görtz his book “Die Pistole 08” on page 24.

This is not about envy, everybody who knows me even a little knows that I enjoy the beauty of things in other people’s possession. No, archive material like this, even when it is ‘only’ the photo archive belongs in the hands of all (!) collectors, not the ‘better’ collector, but all, also the new ones, yes especially to them, how would we otherwise find a next generation for our research.

Unfortunately the amount of documents in Germany that are of interest to our subject is extremely limited after a lost world war, since most archives were largely destroyed. It is therefore very important to open up such interesting material, as the Görtz legacy, to the collecting masses. No collector or expert alone is able to fully recognize the contents of the archive material, let alone understand and document it; many hands and a lot of time is needed for this.

Also as I was in contact with Joachim Görtz for many years, understandably his friend Reinhard Kornmayer knew him better than the unimportant Klaus but I have sincere doubts about the ‘pleasure’ that Görtz would have with these proceedings.

In conclusion, a small anecdote will explain that for a time Joachim Görtz and I had a somewhat strained relationship: He had told me once that his 08 pistol, which he used regularly at the shooting range, had a vague trigger pull that was miles away from the quality of the Swiss gun maker tuned triggers. I told him about the good workmanship of my own gun smith and I mediated between both, which caused me to get stuck in the middle of a fire fight: Both couldn’t stand each other. Görtz must have said something to the gun smith which caused the gun smith to call him a third rate writer. My efforts to achieve a quick end to the work were in vain: the gun smith did keep his word and Görtz got his 08 back with a perfect trigger pull, but it all took weeks and it took months before the smoke cleared. But many times I had the feeling that the honoured Joachim Görtz never really forgave me for this out of frustration, in his eyes I did not put enough pressure on the gun smith.

[Vlim]

Let me add my thoughts on the matter, since, as usual, there are things going on in the background that can lead to misunderstandings.

First of all, I have known, and worked with, Mauro for a couple of years now and I trust he will handle this legacy of which he is the current custodian correctly.

In fact, referring to Klaus his remarks on sharing information amongst collectors, that is exactly how we established a good working relationship. At the time Mauro was considering doing a book on the post war Mauser pistols and Joop van de Kant was working on a book on the 1930s commercial Mauser series. Experts in the field know that there is an overlap: The French occupation 1945-1948. Since I was in contact with Mauro and Joop and knew about both projects I knew that it would be a good idea to bring both authors together and let them compare notes.

This in turn got some other balls rolling, including my involvement in both projects, co-authoring with Mauro on his book. Since together we were able to cover the German, English, Dutch, French and Italian languages it opened up a number of contact opportunities for all of us. In fact, it worked so good that after an introduction meeting at a guest house overseeing Oberndorf am Neckar, the foundations were laid for a series of events that none of use would have foreseen, including the formation of the already legendary "Kü Club"

It was exactly this sense of needing to open up the access to information, especially preventing situations like the Weiss-incident, that led to extensive contact and an exchange of information between the ‘old generation’ and the ‘new generation’ (hey, I’m 40 give me a break ). Prof. Dr. Gminder told us he had a lengthy conversation with mr. Kornmayer and said that both felt that it was time to start sharing their archives with a new generation of collectors in order to make sure they survived. The immediate effect was that Gminder allowed us research access to his personal archives from his time at Mauser and that Kornmayer transferred part of his archive to Mauro. Alternatively, the original Swiss acceptance gauges were transferred to Joop.

I spent a couple of months indexing, digitizing and analyzing my ‘share’ of the “Gminder Files”, as they have been unofficially named and the consensus is that other parts of the archives will be treated in the same way. We are still looking for the best way to protect the original documents the best we can, several locations for storage have been suggested but no good location has been chosen yet. For the sake of our oncoming books, and as a thank you for the work we did, Prof. Dr. Gminder allowed us exclusive access to his archives for the time we needed to finish the manuscript (roughly a year), which has almost come to an end now. Information about alternative subjects, like the links to a Dutch company involved and the HSc pistol has been shared with collectors and experts.

But Klaus certainly has made a very good point and I understand him fully. It will certainly be a subject that will be discussed during our following meetings and I trust we will all be able to reach a consensus on the matter. Today’s electronic media offer enough possibilities to allow access to information without fear of loss or damage to the original media, but on the other hand we will have to prevent any derailed commercial exploitation (‘put it on Ebay for a fiver’) of the material as well (apart from proper research & publication, of course).

[klaus 3338]

Gerben, thank you for the translation. Thank you thousand times for the good work for us collectors!

[Jan C Still]

I agree with Klaus, this important Luger information should be made more available to Luger collectors. As it is now, this information may continue to remain in Europe in the hands of a few private collectors for some time.
Jan

[Vlim]

I sincerely think that the amount of information that will become available in the next couple of years will be quite interesting. The widespread use of the internet has had an impact that none of us could have foreseen only a few decades ago and it has brought together a wealth of knowledge. What is also important is that the gaps between the old world and new world collecting fraternities are being bridged at the same time. The key word here is cooperation.

There are bound to be some bumps in the road, some caused by language barriers, others by considerations regarding European permit laws and the need to publish in order to retain one's permit. This means that some info may be withheld for a period of time, in order to prepare a publication. Many European collectors are allowed to pursue their hobby by law because they have to publish regularly. There should be a reasonable amount of consideration for this, especially in a country that still has a relatively unique freedom regarding fire arms collecting as opposed to the rest of the world.

In the old days, the only media were periodicals and books. Now, we have the internet as a medium and quality forums like this one and Jan's, as an alternative. And more importantly, a generation that knows how to use them.

But as I said, I don't believe that the Gollum approach works (sitting on your little piece of information and keeping the rest of the world from seeing it). I also don't believe that anything can be just chucked into the public domain either. One of the drawbacks of the internet is the total lack of control when it comes to intellectual ownership, so I understand that many are being careful.

So let's hope that the Gollums in our collecting fraternity will disappear and that a good, open and cooperative international community will grow out of this. One thought: none of us live forever, so at one point in time or another all will be revealed

[mauro]

Dear Fellows,
I am happy to see the interesting discussion started with this topic.
I guess Gerben summarizes perfectly our common point of view.

We are working hard to have the possibility to process and make available this information but it is not easy and requires some time.

Just the digitalization process, which is the first step for processing the info, will take several months.

Thank you.

Mauro

[klaus 3338]

Mauro,
only to look through all the folders will need weeks or even month. To work out the informtions in the folders may need years- who knows that yet.
I may say thank you to Joachim Görtz for the archiv and you for all the work you will have with the burden of it.

Best to you
Klaus