Wartime P-08s: Questions

[chuck]

This is my first visit to the Luger forum. As such, please pardon the naivety of my query. (I'm guessing that you've all seen/heard this before!)


I've been interested in the Luger for as many years as I can remember, but have never moved toward ownership until now. I suppose that I am rather fortunate in that I am an American army officer now stationed in central Germany, and a member of a local (German) shooting club.


While leafing through some brochures and catalogs at the club this morning, I noticed advertisements for World War II vintage P-08s from Mauser, DWM and Erfurt. Given the current exchange rate, the pricing on these ranges from $260 for a "good to very good" mixmaster, to $470 for a "very good" pistol with matching numbers. All of the above manufacturers are available for the same pricing.


I'm no expert, but half-a-Grand for a VG matched P-08 strikes me as an exceptional deal, assuming that everything is as advertised. I've read the FAQs here, and have tried to do a bit of research elsewhere, but I am still unclear on the relative desireability of one manufacturer or year versus another. In other words, are there noteworthy differences between pistols built during particular years and/or by particular manufacturers during the Second World War (i.e. is a 1939 Mauser more "desireable" than and 1941 DWM, etc.)?


I am interested in what might be coined a "somewhat collectible" pistol -- an interesting and attractive example of the breed that could also see some service out on the firing line. Since scarcity and value are of only tertiary concern, these old service pistols sound like they might be well-suited to my purposes; still, I would like to acquire a bit more informal education before pursuing the matter any further.


Does anyone have experience with these WWII variants? What should I know before buying such a pistol? What questions haven't I asked that I probably should have? What should my expectations be? Your comments and insights (as well as referrals to other relevant resources) would be most appreciated!


Chuck // Webmaster at the Stormbirds aviation site



Stormbirds.com
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[tom]

Guten Morgen!


Welcome to the forum.


You make me jealous; I spent parts of the early 70's, 80's and 90's in Germany as an Army aviator and later as a private businessman. What a wonderful time I had!


On to your question...


III Reich era guns are all over the board as to pricing, which is driven by the market. I should think one of your main concerns would be to check with ATF to determine if there are any *quirks* in their regs that will hamper your importing a piece when you DEROS. Prior to the change in the US laws in '86 it was absolutely verboten to import any former military weapon into the USA, and that was back when minty pieces were in the $250 range in Germany.


After that, your challenge is to figure out what you like best-early pieces (K and G dates, Scriptic marked S-42) or Banners (Contracts pieces as well as commercial and polezi guns), late production byf codes, 42 codes, etc, etc...the choices are many.


After you figure out which ones you like, then buy the best condition your checkbook can afford. You want to ensure that the piece is, in fact, matching. That will require disassembly and a thorough inspection. You want to ensure that the finish is original. Modern gun mechanics can do phenominal jobs on refinishing and their work has fooled experts. (There are a couple of almost guaranteed ways to spot a refinish, but that is a subject for some other time.)


Ensure that the bore is up to speed and that the grips are matching and in a condition that is reflective of the overall condition of the gun. If you find one with a matching magazine you are extremely lucky, but always suspect such matches are artificial. There is info on the forum about such things.


Whatever pistol you glom on to, you should try to get a contemporary holster also. Original III Reich Luger holsters are actually rarer than the pistols and the prices are beginning to reflect that fact-just check e-bay!


Happy collecting and shooting!


Tom

[chuck]

Tom,


I had intended to allow some time to pass before jumping back into this thread, but given your informative and comprehensive reply, I think that you've provided me with a very good starting point. Many thanks from a fellow army aviator at Fliegerhorst Langendiebach/Hanau.


Perhaps the most relevant point is your warning with respect to the legalities of private "importation." This is a real minefield at the moment, as the laws affecting U.S. personnel have changed considerably during the past 12-18 months. In effect, we are now required to abide by the same rules and regulations which govern German nationals. This means compulsory membership in an organized Schuetzengesellschaft, possession of the national Waffenbeisitzkarte, limits upon the type and quantity of weapons owned and exhaustive registration.


How this (or post FOPA/'86 developments) may have impacted the previous "bring back" moratorium is anyone's guess. Army officials have outlined the ATF procedures to be followed for importation of locally-acquired arms in general terms, but the details are lacking. My understanding is that this has primarily been done to insure that no restricted weapons (as in Title II/Class III, or worse, those dreaded high-capacity 9mm pistols) are brought back into CONUS. I don't know how this may impact a "normal" P-08 or C&R gun, but I do know that the importation of commercial equivalents of contemporary military arms (i.e. HK SOCOM .45s) is generally permissible under current law. Sounds like I've a bit more research to do on this. Worst case, I suppose I might be limited to a commercial Parabellum, vice an ex-Wehrmacht example. Either way, the prices seem very reasonable over here, and I think it would be foolish to overlook these opportunities. With respect to condition, recent restorations and parts switching, as an M1 Garand owner I am quite familiar with each these phenomena. Just the same, I appreciate the heads-up.


So ... which P-08 to pursue? A couple of things seem clear after re-reading your reply: (1) I should make a point of carefully seeking out a specific pistol that appeals to me, as opposed to simply plopping down $500 for an unknown variant, and (2) I need to get some decent reference material on hand before doing anything else. I have scanned the book offerings at Amazon and elsewhere, and I seem to recall being impressed by a copy of Kenyon's "Lugers At Random" years ago. I have heard good things about Jan Stills' books -- which, if any, of these might you recommend to me?


Chuck

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

Chuck; you will get more information from others and they will tell you to get a Luger made from the late 20"s thru l942. This is because they have better steel than the ones from WW1. This is correct. The price is better than over here, for sure. Good luck.


Lonnie

[tom]

Hi Again Chuck,


As far as books go, buy them ALL. You can never have too much knowledge. Follow the forum thread on the Sam Costanzo controversy...all of the books are good, none I have yet encountered were without some flaw or mistake-they are after all the product of human endeavor-and, you can own a complete library of just about everything in English on the toggle top for about the price of a midgrade pistol.


I have been playing with lugers for over 40 years now, and it is seldom that a week goes by and I do not learn something new. This forum is a good place to monitor for info and some real expertise is available just for the asking and you can't beat the price.


Also, I strongly suggest you join NAPCA; their monthly pub, Automag, is a newsletter that is a gold mine of information from bona fide experts in self loading pistols of all flavors. A great deal on Lugers, not surprisingly.


My 2 cents (zwei pfennig)


Tom


FWIW, I used to fly into Fliegerhorst regularly in the early 70s for SFTS training; I was at EDOR, Coleman; later in K-town and following that ran a company that was dual based in Hanau and Idar-Oberstein.

First let me say that if the adds you are seeing are offering Lugers from bulk lots (i.e they are not listing date, makers, ind.pistols seperatly) then you are almost for sure looking at Lugers that have been post-war refinished by either the East-Germans or the Russians. It is interesting to note that the East-German Lugers were available via the Rod and Gun clubs, who bought them from West-German importers before they were released for sale here in the US! If you confirm that these pistols are re-furbished, then the prices you saw are comparable to the same pistols in the US, maybe slightly lower. If condition is good then these type pistols make excellent shooting guns ( I too would strongly recomend the Mauser WWII era (34-42 made) there are too many factors to look at in a every day shooting Luger to bother to check out details on WWI era for this purpose. As far a "collectability" they are not the $1000 plus range as original finish Lugers, but they are certainly legit and real Lugers. If you are looking for a shooter the above mentioned books would do you little good and in fact all togeather would cost you more than one of the pistols you are considering. I would recommned that you pay for the matching grade and get a Mauser (code S/42, 42 or byf or Mauser banner) and try to specify a nice bore condition. The East German re-works are usually of superb standard, the Russian re-works depended more on the condition the gun was in at the time, they tended to do minimum metal re-conditioning or re-barreling and just reblued over the de-rusted pistol. Some look real nice as they were nice going into this process, others reflect the ravages that these guns went through from their capture and several years of poor storage.

Chuck, My experience in Germany looking at Lugers at the retailers (Franconia et al) was that these were the same reworks currently being offer in the USA, except without the importer markings. Your best bet on these, since almost all of them have been refinished is to get one with ORIGINAL matching numbers, not ones the have been renumbered with larger than normal sized dies or worse yet, had a mismatched number peened out and the "matching" number added with an electic engraving tool. So my advise is to wait until you can physically inspect these, rather than ordering thru the mail.

[chuck]

Tom H.,


I appreciate the advice. I believe that I was looking at a Franconia catalog when I first spotted this offer. A bit more research has revealed that there appear to be a number of gun shops in central Germany with respectable inventories of more collectible P-08s, and this sounds like a safer, more predicatable alternative -- even if it costs more initially. My background is actually in 1911s, and as one of my fellow .45 enthusiasts says, "you get what you pay for, front end or [in the] back end."


One related question comes to mind. Obviously, anything I might purchase here will be devoid of importer's marks when it arrives in the States. The same would surely be true of those brought back in the duffle bags of tens of thousands of WWI & WWII vets. What of the rest? Do many "collectible" Lugers in the US have importers markings? If so, who were the primary importers, and how were they required to be marked? I am aware of the newer Interarms examples in the '70s (and I like these pistols as well), but have no experience with the older guns on the domestic scene.

[Marvin]

Chuck,


In the late 1950s and into the 1960s, Hunters Lodge imported a lot of the WWII weapons to include Lugers, P.38s, Mauser K98k, British, French, Italian rifles, etc. Most of these were not marked in any way to indicate they were imported. I would venture to guess that many of the Lugers we have in our collections may have come from this importation. The prices for Lugers during this time ranged from $50 and up. I remember when I was 9 yrs old in 1958, K-Mart had the Italian Carcano rifles in bins for $9.95 each and they looked like new. i tried to get my dad to buy me one and he said they were not any good and it would be a waste of money. Of course, $9.95 was more money then than now, ha, ha, ha.


With the prices then vs. the price today, I sure hope that in the next 20 years, the value will continue to climb. Now that I can afford to buy some of these, I will buy whatever I can afford. I agree that you should buy the best you can afford and your fellow enthusiest are correct, you get what yo pay for.


Marvin