Need help with Unit Mark?

barr44 · 11-29-2010, 07:47 PM

Thanks in advance, I've got a good feeling this is probably an easy one, but I haven't been able to find it in what little info I have.
Unit mark P.W. 2659., anyone got an idea?
It's on a 1917/1920 rework, but there are no police mods on the pistol.
I would appreciate whatever anyone would care to share,
thanks again,
barr

BogeyB · 11-29-2010, 09:42 PM

Don Maus says in his book; History Writ in Steel, that this is from the Police School of Westfalen.

Mike

Edward Tinker · 11-30-2010, 07:24 AM

I have been surprised at how many P.W.'s that I've noticed (I collect police, so that is why I notice), but interesting.

I will have to pull out Don's book and look and see if it was a larger school.

Ed

Don M · 11-30-2010, 11:11 AM

A property number this large means it was from the Polizei Württemberg. I assume it is a DWM but would appreciate knowing the serial number and suffix for my database. Photos would also be appreciated.

barr44 · 12-02-2010, 12:56 PM

Folks,
S.n. on this 1917/1920 DWM is 7387a and I am attempting to add some image files.
Hope this info helps. I am curious as to what this unit is about, is this a school? Also if this pistol was attached to a police unit would it have been modified with the additional safeties? This gun has no sear safety. Also the barrel has been replaced but numbered to the gun, and seems to retain an imperial proof. Would this be part of the rework program?
As near as I can determine it is all matching, even though the barrel has been replaced. Again any information forth coming is appreciated.
Thanks, barr

Don M · 12-02-2010, 02:22 PM

Barr, thanks for the additional information. The grip strap marking is definitely from the state police of Württemberg. Württemberg was a separate state, like Prussia, in the Weimar Republic. These police were the equivalent of the Schutzpolizei in Prussia and other German states. During the Weimar era, the police were either state or local, not national.

There are several other Lugers with Polizei Württemberg markings listed in Table 16-1 of my book, History Writ in Steel. Where the information is available, none of them has a sear safety. This indicates these weapons were issued to the barracked Bereitshaftspolizei which was transferred to the Landespolizei and then to the military in 1934-36. The Lugers of these police were exempted from the 1933 order to add sear and mag safeties.

You mentioned a "rework program" and I assume you are relating that to the 1920 stamp on the chamber. This stamp did not signify that the gun was reworked in 1920. It indicates that the pistol belonged to a government agency (military, police) in 1920 to exempt it from the requirement for civilians to turn in weapons.

barr44 · 12-03-2010, 09:03 PM

Don,
Thanks again for some great information. If you need other better photos of the pistol or it's parts, let me know.
I am a little confused(nothing new) about the 1920 property mark. Are you telling me that the gun was already being used by the police and that it was marked with 1920 to indicate it was govt. property?
I was under the impression(probably wrong) that the 1920 property mark was part of a program that the government undertook to get govt. equipment marked according to some dictates of the Versailles treaty. I thought that at that time there was a big push to refurbish equipment and have it properly marked as govt. property. Also, thought that at that time, a lot of the guns meant for the police would have the police safeties installed by govt. arsenals.
I would appreciate any clarification that you would care to share.
What are you compiling a data-base on, double date lugers or police or unit marked lugers? I may have another to add to it in either case.
Thanks again for your help, barr

Don M · 12-04-2010, 02:58 PM

Barry,

Your confusion about the meaning of the 1920 propery stamp is shared by many collectors and dealers. It is very often referred to as the "1920 rework stamp." The truth is that it meant only that the weapon was the legitimate property of the government and was therefore exempted from the "Disarming of the German Population."

Since WWI ended with an armistice and not a surrender, German troops retained their weapons and many soldiers took their personal weapons home. Thus, Germany became one of the most heavily armed nations in the world. The Treaty of Versailles prohibited civilian possession of "war materials" which resulted in the "Disarming of the People Law" of 7 Augeust 1920 requiring that prohibited weapons be turned in for a nominal reward. Prior to this, orders were issued to at least the Army and police to stamp 1920 on their weapons to prevent them from being stolen and turned in for the reward. In most cases, the 1920 stamp on a police weapon probably means it was already police property at that time. There are some notable exceptions that are explained in my book.

There was no wholesale rework program to make police weapons "compliant with the Versailles Treaty" as is often stated. The police were permitted to have pistols with calibers greater than 8mm and barrel lengths longer than 100mm. Police used many unmodified LP08s and C96s for some period following the war. Apparently, most decided that barrels longer than 100mm were unsuitable for police service and shortened them by about 1930. These reworks were independent of the 1920 stamp.

The addition of sear and mag safeties to police P08s did not occur until 1934 in response to an order by the Interior Ministry in August 1933.

My database lists police markings and some details of the weapons they are on. I am currently approaching 3,000 records!

I hope this helps clarify things.

barr44 · 12-04-2010, 05:07 PM

Don,
Again I thank you for the information. I'll have to go back to my books and try and get a better understanding of what was going on in the weimer era. Your information certainly improves my understanding of what went on with the property stamp.
I find that there are many very knowledgeable folks on this forum and I really appreciate all of the help I get from this forum. Many times just reading the posts of others. I do appreciate all the help I get from all of the various folks.

Don, I have a 1915 DWM, s.n. 362g, it is marked P.C.98., which I had posted on an earlier post. The unit mark had subsequently been XXXed out. Not sure if you got all the information on that one that you needed. Not sure if it was police or not. If you didn't and would like image files or more info, let me know.

Thanks again to all,
barr

11-29-2010, 07:47 PM	#1
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 153 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Need help with Unit Mark? Thanks in advance, I've got a good feeling this is probably an easy one, but I haven't been able to find it in what little info I have. Unit mark P.W. 2659., anyone got an idea? It's on a 1917/1920 rework, but there are no police mods on the pistol. I would appreciate whatever anyone would care to share, thanks again, barr

11-29-2010, 09:42 PM	#2
BogeyB Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mc Donough, GA. Posts: 420 Thanks: 0 Thanked 222 Times in 96 Posts	Don Maus says in his book; History Writ in Steel, that this is from the Police School of Westfalen. Mike __________________ MAGA Always!! NRA Benifactor, GCA

11-30-2010, 07:24 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I have been surprised at how many P.W.'s that I've noticed (I collect police, so that is why I notice), but interesting. I will have to pull out Don's book and look and see if it was a larger school. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-30-2010, 11:11 AM	#4
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	A property number this large means it was from the Polizei Württemberg. I assume it is a DWM but would appreciate knowing the serial number and suffix for my database. Photos would also be appreciated. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-02-2010, 12:56 PM	#5
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 153 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Unit mark P.W. 2659. Folks, S.n. on this 1917/1920 DWM is 7387a and I am attempting to add some image files. Hope this info helps. I am curious as to what this unit is about, is this a school? Also if this pistol was attached to a police unit would it have been modified with the additional safeties? This gun has no sear safety. Also the barrel has been replaced but numbered to the gun, and seems to retain an imperial proof. Would this be part of the rework program? As near as I can determine it is all matching, even though the barrel has been replaced. Again any information forth coming is appreciated. Thanks, barr Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

12-02-2010, 02:22 PM	#6
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Barr, thanks for the additional information. The grip strap marking is definitely from the state police of Württemberg. Württemberg was a separate state, like Prussia, in the Weimar Republic. These police were the equivalent of the Schutzpolizei in Prussia and other German states. During the Weimar era, the police were either state or local, not national. There are several other Lugers with Polizei Württemberg markings listed in Table 16-1 of my book, History Writ in Steel. Where the information is available, none of them has a sear safety. This indicates these weapons were issued to the barracked Bereitshaftspolizei which was transferred to the Landespolizei and then to the military in 1934-36. The Lugers of these police were exempted from the 1933 order to add sear and mag safeties. You mentioned a "rework program" and I assume you are relating that to the 1920 stamp on the chamber. This stamp did not signify that the gun was reworked in 1920. It indicates that the pistol belonged to a government agency (military, police) in 1920 to exempt it from the requirement for civilians to turn in weapons. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com Last edited by Don M; 12-02-2010 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Correct typo

12-03-2010, 09:03 PM	#7
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 153 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Rework program? Don, Thanks again for some great information. If you need other better photos of the pistol or it's parts, let me know. I am a little confused(nothing new) about the 1920 property mark. Are you telling me that the gun was already being used by the police and that it was marked with 1920 to indicate it was govt. property? I was under the impression(probably wrong) that the 1920 property mark was part of a program that the government undertook to get govt. equipment marked according to some dictates of the Versailles treaty. I thought that at that time there was a big push to refurbish equipment and have it properly marked as govt. property. Also, thought that at that time, a lot of the guns meant for the police would have the police safeties installed by govt. arsenals. I would appreciate any clarification that you would care to share. What are you compiling a data-base on, double date lugers or police or unit marked lugers? I may have another to add to it in either case. Thanks again for your help, barr

12-04-2010, 02:58 PM	#8
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	1920 Government Propery Stamp Barry, Your confusion about the meaning of the 1920 propery stamp is shared by many collectors and dealers. It is very often referred to as the "1920 rework stamp." The truth is that it meant only that the weapon was the legitimate property of the government and was therefore exempted from the "Disarming of the German Population." Since WWI ended with an armistice and not a surrender, German troops retained their weapons and many soldiers took their personal weapons home. Thus, Germany became one of the most heavily armed nations in the world. The Treaty of Versailles prohibited civilian possession of "war materials" which resulted in the "Disarming of the People Law" of 7 Augeust 1920 requiring that prohibited weapons be turned in for a nominal reward. Prior to this, orders were issued to at least the Army and police to stamp 1920 on their weapons to prevent them from being stolen and turned in for the reward. In most cases, the 1920 stamp on a police weapon probably means it was already police property at that time. There are some notable exceptions that are explained in my book. There was no wholesale rework program to make police weapons "compliant with the Versailles Treaty" as is often stated. The police were permitted to have pistols with calibers greater than 8mm and barrel lengths longer than 100mm. Police used many unmodified LP08s and C96s for some period following the war. Apparently, most decided that barrels longer than 100mm were unsuitable for police service and shortened them by about 1930. These reworks were independent of the 1920 stamp. The addition of sear and mag safeties to police P08s did not occur until 1934 in response to an order by the Interior Ministry in August 1933. My database lists police markings and some details of the weapons they are on. I am currently approaching 3,000 records! I hope this helps clarify things. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-04-2010, 05:07 PM	#9
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 153 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Thanks to all! Don, Again I thank you for the information. I'll have to go back to my books and try and get a better understanding of what was going on in the weimer era. Your information certainly improves my understanding of what went on with the property stamp. I find that there are many very knowledgeable folks on this forum and I really appreciate all of the help I get from this forum. Many times just reading the posts of others. I do appreciate all the help I get from all of the various folks. Don, I have a 1915 DWM, s.n. 362g, it is marked P.C.98., which I had posted on an earlier post. The unit mark had subsequently been XXXed out. Not sure if you got all the information on that one that you needed. Not sure if it was police or not. If you didn't and would like image files or more info, let me know. Thanks again to all, barr