Is this a rare Swiss Luger?

[Peter Anhalt]

Hi,

Came across this Swiss Luger on a UK auction site.

There's only two pics in the auction catalogue and I've pasted the auction description verbatim below.

Hope its of interest.

Auction description:

A RARE 9mm (PARA) 'LUGER' SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL, MODEL 'SWISS 06/29 COMMERCIAL', serial no. P26292, 
circa 1943, with 4 3/4in. sighted barrel, toggle with Swiss cross mark, grip safety, chequered plastic grips with 'F & W' logo, no provision for shoulder stock, all matching numbers and original magazine with bakelite base, the whole retaining much original finish throughout 

Provenance: Records state that only 100 Swiss 06/29 pistols (including one prototype) were produced in 1943 from commercial parts already on hand (denoted by the 'P' prefix to the serial number) and by converting existing military pistols. More recent studies have suggested that far less than 100 were actually manufactured, and that some were subsequently re-converted back to their original calibre of 7.65mm (Para). Furthermore, for a while only two official conversions were acknowledged to exist, serial numbers P26291 and P26300, subsequently however a small number have come to light including the example offered here.

[Vlim]

Swiss 9mm lugers are an interesting, and difficult bunch. By the time that the Bern arsenal was done bumming around and finally got a working prototype that produced acceptable results accuracy wise, the army already had decided to go with the P210 design instead.

Tinkering with the opening curve, using wrong steel types and generally thinking they were smarter than the Germans meant that the Swiss 9mm was an utter failure.

Swiss gun engineering knowledge is often overrated, as are most of their products

[Ron Wood]

If authentic, is is a relatively rare Luger. Unfortunately it is easily faked. I saw two of them on the same table at a Tulsa show one year. Chances of that being for real is probably astronomical.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Swiss gun engineering knowledge is often overrated, as are most of their products

The Swiss 06/1929 Parabellum is the only Luger design to earn world championship honors. Unlike any Luger ever made, the SIG P210 digests all kinds of 7.65mm and 9mm Para ammo with comparable accuracy. Based on these distinctions, Swiss gun engineering knowledge appears to trump its German counterparts.

[Vlim]

I think that is a good example of the way the Swiss tend to work (or at least did, they did change their methods during the last decennia): Overengineering their products to such an extent that they are excellent target pistols, albeit a tad on the expensive side, and not much better as a purely military sidearm than many solutions that cost only a fraction of their guns.

By the time they won a world championship, neither DWM nor Mauser were actively manufacturing lugers so not a lot of comparison possible there. If you look at the early 1900s, you will notice that many championships were won using DWM pistols.

During the development of the 9mm 06/29 the Swiss were shocked when they found out that an old DWM performed better than their solution

I like the 06/29 because it is a milestone in the Parabellum development, although not the prettiest one. But with all its intended improvements it is not a better gun than any other Parabellum pistol, just a more cost-effective solution (according to Swiss reasoning, at least).

The SIG P210, although a newer gun, never did manage to obtain the accuracy of the Parabellum pistol, which is somewhat painful as well. And I doubt it was much cheaper to make either.

[Michael Zeleny]

The 9mm SIG P210 is somewhat less accurate than the 7.65mm W+F 06/1929. When both are chambered for the same round, the difference is negligible. In over three decades of shooting I never found a 4" 9mm Luger that could be relied upon to cycle any commercial load, out of any available magazine. The cannon assembly of the P08 is far too light to handle the recoil impulse of the standard 9mm load consistently, with any reasonable springing arrangement. Modest improvements realized by lengthening the barrel or narrowing down the bore to the original 7.65mm dimension cannot suffice to adapt Hugo Borchardt's toggle action design to modern military service. Sooner or later, almost every autopistol manufacturer reverted to the Browning lilting barrel, short recoil design. The Swiss were ahead of the curve in 1947.

[Michael Zeleny]

I just bought this pistol from Holts and will review it in this space upon import.

[sheepherder]

I have never been a fan of the lug-less, non-grip-knob Lugers...but the grip safety here looks odd...The pistol seems to be on "Fire", but the grip safety is depressed...

Is the grip safety independent of the thumb safety (free to swing in or out), or is it pinned to the thumb safety mechanism (so that it would follow the thumb safety linkage)???

[SIGP2101]

I do not know whose engineering is better but I know one thing for sure. Both design a proven to be most accurate autoloaders out of production line. How do I know that? Every time I borrow either Luger or SIG to people on the range they outshoot themselves.
P08 is artwork designed from scratch, while P210 is kind of Frankenstein creation that borrowed all the best features of some guns, and some sturdiest solutions of another guns of that time. Instead of monster Swiss created beauty. What more could they have asked from a pistol in 1947. Simplicity, sturdiness, accuracy, no weak parts. Design was bulletproof. Than IPSIC came….today’s shooters demand bells and whistles, military of that time didn’t.

As for the Swiss engineering thing - keep in mind that almost all Colt’s revolvers clock-work is identical copy of Swiss revolver Model 1882. With some improvements same design being in Colt’s revolvers since New Service model produced in 1898. Off course Colt being master business planer they got their design patented around 1887-88 in US. See I just had to find that Swiss link. Al of this time everybody was doing what Chinese doing today. But I wouldn’t go there to discuss Chinese engineering capabilities.

[Michael Zeleny]

Than IPSIC came….today’s shooters demand bells and whistles, military of that time didn’t.

Jan Foss of Norway won the 1976 IPSC World Shoot II Salzburg, Austria with a customized SIG P210-5.

[Michael Zeleny]

I have never been a fan of the lug-less, non-grip-knob Lugers...but the grip safety here looks odd...The pistol seems to be on "Fire", but the grip safety is depressed...

Probably an easily fixed broken safety lever spring. At £1,264.38, the gun is cheap enough even as a fantasy piece. I am skeptical about claims that Swiss Lugers cannot be made to work with 9mm barrels.

Is the grip safety independent of the thumb safety (free to swing in or out), or is it pinned to the thumb safety mechanism (so that it would follow the thumb safety linkage)???

On W+F 1906/29 pistols, putting the safety lever on "S" merely prevents the grip safety from being depressed.

[SIGP2101]

And why is that American magazine release is called 'American' when it is not American. In 1899 Colt M1900 didn’t have it while Luger did have button mag release incorporated in its design in late 1890s. (what year is Luger patent?) Prior to 1911 American pistols didn’t have this feature. Even the Borchardt C-93 pistol had one incorporated in design in 1893 long before Americans did it. Go figure.

[Michael Zeleny]

And why is that American magazine release is called 'American' when it is not American.

Neither are hamburgers or french fries, and yet we export them worldwide.

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Neither are hamburgers or french fries, and yet we export them worldwide.

LOL You are not helping me with my frustration Michael, not at all.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Probably an easily fixed broken safety lever spring.

Usually the safety lever spring is not broken (but as Michael said, it is easily replaced if it is). About 90+% of the time, the grip safety is not properly assembled to engage the spring.

[Vlim]

It doesn't help that the Belgians invented the French Fries either

I am skeptical about claims that Swiss Lugers cannot be made to work with 9mm barrels.

Michael, and rightly so. Documented evidence show that the alterations made to the opening curve of the 06/29 design hindered the development of a reliable Mauser Parabellum in 4" 9mm and in 6" 9mm and in 4" .30 luger. Since the action of a Parabellum is a physics balancing act, you can imagine the frustration of the German engineers in the late sixties.

Documented evidence also shows that the guys at Bern had problems coming up with an accurate 9mm version of the 06/29, which was finally solved by using a completely stress free gun barrel steel. Which in turn created a functional Swiss 06/29 in 9mm...

I would really like to know why the Swiss decided to change that opening curve of the 06/29. They must have had a compelling reason to do so, judging from surviving test guns where the opening curve hat been altered.

With so many possible combinations of springs, spring tensions, steel types, steel hardness variations, powder types, loads, bullet types, rifling patterns finding a working combination was a matter of trial and error. This may explain how several different makers reached different conclusions and created different solutions.

It's about time to ransack the Swiss archives once again

[raygun]

I guess the toggle action is essentially an American design , first proving successful in the Henry Rifle and going on to be even more successful in the 1866 and 1873 Winchester.

Next came another American, Maxim who used it in his very successful Machinegun. Considering the millions of rounds fired out of maxim and Vickers machineguns using a toggle action , it can hardly be described as mechanically finicky or unsound.

Didn't Hugo Borchardt spend time in America? perhaps thats where he got the idea !?

[HKMan]

I happen to like the Swiss Luger's grip better than the German gun. I love my Interarms Swiss Pattern 6" barreled Mauser Luger!

However, why is it so hard to find a hardshell holster for the 6" gun?

[mecano44]

[/QUOTE]
Didn't Hugo Borchardt spend time in America? perhaps thats where he got the idea !?[/QUOTE]

Of course....He worked for the Winchester Repeating Arms Co...and seems that he developed a Revolver , which purpose was to force Colt to cease production of rifles...

[Ben M.]

Those holsters look like this, from a Members web site.

http://www.lugerlp08.com/Holster_files/image010.jpg

The show up on ebay and gun shows from time to time.