The "X"

Jim Van Eldik · 01-14-2002, 01:32 PM

As I explore my 1939 Mauser I keep finding more markings. There is a fairly large "X" possibly engraved rather than stamped on the front frame right in front of the trigger guard. The lines of the X are curved and the top ends are thicker. What's it mean?

Jim

John Sabato · 01-14-2002, 02:11 PM

Jim,

Most Luger serial numbers (but not all) contain an alpha letter suffix that is an integral part of the serial number. You will find this suffix on the frame near the the front of the trigger guard as yo have described. In your case your serial number must include this "X" on any official paperwork (like licensing and registration paperwork if any exists) to uniquely identify it from others.

To leave off this suffix can cause your Luger to be confused with the many others of the same serial number. There are many cases where a Luger has been identified as Stolen because it was confused with another when one or both owners failed to note the letter suffix on their ownership papers or bill of sale.

regards,

John

Jim Van Eldik · 01-14-2002, 03:03 PM

John - This is different. The serial suffix is a small "w". This is a "letter" almost one-fourth inch tall, and cruder, not like the fancy suffix letters. It is below the serial numbers, right in front of the trigger guard. It was put there on purpose, but I don't think it's stamped.

Jim

bill m · 01-14-2002, 03:25 PM

Hi,

What variation of a 1939 Mauser do you have? A 1939 S/42, a 1939 42, a 1939 Banner -- E/C,? E/F,? E/L,? -- Contract Banner of some kind? -- From the location of the "X" it is not a factory mark that I am aware of. I would guess it is post WWII. Is this an import Luger? Refinished Luger?

John Sabato · 01-14-2002, 04:02 PM

along with the other identifying marks on your Luger? this could spark some discussion or prompt an answer that sits lurking in the hearts of forum members but they have inadequate info to respond with confidence...

-John

Herb · 01-14-2002, 04:05 PM

According to Costanzo (World 0f Lugers) on page 207, item 176-176a this is destruction proof for Lugers which did not meet factory or military specs and were deemed hazardous. They were to be destroyed and not reissued or reworked. He further states some of them excaped. I have a DWM with that X on the left side of the frame near the chamber and have fired many rounds thru it and nothing adverse happened, yet.

Orv Reichert · 01-14-2002, 04:42 PM

An 'X'appears on about 25% of the recent imports from the former USSR....all were dipped...many reworked...some are like NEW!

Orv Reichert

Jim Van Eldik · 01-14-2002, 04:57 PM

John,

I'll see if I can borrow a digital camera and take a shot at it. It might be a few days. If some of the folks would post some X's I can sure announce when there is a match in terms of the type of X and its location.

The gun is a 1939 with the number 42 on the top slide. It is in very fine condition, all matching except magazine, but may be refinished. There are a couple of slightly rough spots that might have had some rust that are blue and probably shouldn't be. I bought it as a shooter and it does that very well.

It has all the proof marks I believe, so I think it must have been accepted for service -- unless it was accepted and then unaccepted. I know nothing of its provinance except the dealer had quite a variety including several he said passed through the hands of the Russians.

Jim

Jim Van Eldik · 01-14-2002, 05:00 PM

Orv,

I think you hit it.

Jim

schwob · 01-14-2002, 08:44 PM

John, your 101% correct. Many years ago I ended up between a rock and a hard place due to my omission of the suffix letter. I was working and that time and it really caused a flap, especially when it involved jurisdictions from another State.

Dean · 01-15-2002, 01:20 AM

I read somewhere that the "X" was supposed to be crossed rifles. That's why the lines are wider at the bottom of the "X". It was a Russian acceptance mark put on after

"reconditioning", prior to putting the weapon into

storage. Both of my K98's have that mark, and they were Russian "reworks".

Dean

P.S. discovered this site a few weeks ago. You folks

have really been helpful!

Orv Reichert · 01-15-2002, 02:15 AM

sorry.....it is just an inspection or viewers mark of some type...

I believe the 'crossed rifles' was just someones imagination running wild........that was an Imperial stamp, wasn't it?

Orv Reichert

Jim Van Eldik · 01-15-2002, 10:40 AM

Thanks Dean -- will pull out the magnifying glass.

Jim

Jim Van Eldik · 01-15-2002, 10:42 AM

OPPS!! Ok Orv I won't pull it out.

Jim

01-15-2002, 12:56 PM

Jim, The straight legged X (sometimes in a circle) that several of you have described is usually found below the serial number on the front of the frame or on the left receiver and is definately a Russian rework mark.

Jim Van Eldik · 01-15-2002, 02:10 PM

That's it. Thanks Tom!!

Jim

Kyrie · 01-15-2002, 09:10 PM

Hi Tom,

That may or may not be true - it also appears on Lugers that were never in Soviet Russian hands. Also, not all of the Lugers (and P.38Ã¢??s and Kar98k rifles) imported from the CIS states have the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â.

While the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â is a great deal more common on the WWII German arms imported from the CIS countries, itÃ¢??s an open question whether the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â was stamped on the arms after they were captured, or before. It could well be that the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â really is a Third Reich mark indicating the arms were condemned, that the Soviets captured the warehouses where these arms were stored prior to destruction, and the Soviets took them home and reworked them.

But this is all guessing. In simple truth we donÃ¢??t know when, why, or whom the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â was stamped.

Best regards,

Kyrie

bill m · 01-15-2002, 11:32 PM

Kyrie · 01-17-2002, 07:33 PM

Orv Reichert · 01-17-2002, 11:36 PM

Until a few years ago, the only guns we saw with the 'X' stamp were "Nam bring backs". [source probably USSR?]

No other P38s were seen with it over the years..and, none were seen in Germany [according to my buddy Alex Kruzek]

Then,when Alex went thru the cases of guns Imported from the Ukraine, he saw about 20% of them were 'X' stamped. Alex personally examined more than 3000 guns in that group.

I will accept his conclusion/statement that the X mark is a Russian stamp of some type.

Orv Reichert

01-14-2002, 01:32 PM	#1
Jim Van Eldik User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The "X" As I explore my 1939 Mauser I keep finding more markings. There is a fairly large "X" possibly engraved rather than stamped on the front frame right in front of the trigger guard. The lines of the X are curved and the top ends are thicker. What's it mean? Jim

01-14-2002, 02:11 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Serial number suffix Jim, Most Luger serial numbers (but not all) contain an alpha letter suffix that is an integral part of the serial number. You will find this suffix on the frame near the the front of the trigger guard as yo have described. In your case your serial number must include this "X" on any official paperwork (like licensing and registration paperwork if any exists) to uniquely identify it from others. To leave off this suffix can cause your Luger to be confused with the many others of the same serial number. There are many cases where a Luger has been identified as Stolen because it was confused with another when one or both owners failed to note the letter suffix on their ownership papers or bill of sale. regards, John

01-14-2002, 03:03 PM	#3
Jim Van Eldik User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Serial number suffix John - This is different. The serial suffix is a small "w". This is a "letter" almost one-fourth inch tall, and cruder, not like the fancy suffix letters. It is below the serial numbers, right in front of the trigger guard. It was put there on purpose, but I don't think it's stamped. Jim

01-14-2002, 03:25 PM	#4
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Serial number suffix Hi, What variation of a 1939 Mauser do you have? A 1939 S/42, a 1939 42, a 1939 Banner -- E/C,? E/F,? E/L,? -- Contract Banner of some kind? -- From the location of the "X" it is not a factory mark that I am aware of. I would guess it is post WWII. Is this an import Luger? Refinished Luger?

01-14-2002, 04:02 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Jim can you post a scan or photo of the mark and it's location? along with the other identifying marks on your Luger? this could spark some discussion or prompt an answer that sits lurking in the hearts of forum members but they have inadequate info to respond with confidence... -John

01-14-2002, 04:05 PM	#6
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Serial number suffix According to Costanzo (World 0f Lugers) on page 207, item 176-176a this is destruction proof for Lugers which did not meet factory or military specs and were deemed hazardous. They were to be destroyed and not reissued or reworked. He further states some of them excaped. I have a DWM with that X on the left side of the frame near the chamber and have fired many rounds thru it and nothing adverse happened, yet.

01-14-2002, 04:42 PM	#7
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"X" An 'X'appears on about 25% of the recent imports from the former USSR....all were dipped...many reworked...some are like NEW! Orv Reichert

01-14-2002, 04:57 PM	#8
Jim Van Eldik User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Jim can you post a scan or photo of the mark and it's location? John, I'll see if I can borrow a digital camera and take a shot at it. It might be a few days. If some of the folks would post some X's I can sure announce when there is a match in terms of the type of X and its location. The gun is a 1939 with the number 42 on the top slide. It is in very fine condition, all matching except magazine, but may be refinished. There are a couple of slightly rough spots that might have had some rust that are blue and probably shouldn't be. I bought it as a shooter and it does that very well. It has all the proof marks I believe, so I think it must have been accepted for service -- unless it was accepted and then unaccepted. I know nothing of its provinance except the dealer had quite a variety including several he said passed through the hands of the Russians. Jim

01-14-2002, 05:00 PM	#9
Jim Van Eldik User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: "X" Orv, I think you hit it. Jim

01-14-2002, 08:44 PM	#10
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Serial number suffix John, your 101% correct. Many years ago I ended up between a rock and a hard place due to my omission of the suffix letter. I was working and that time and it really caused a flap, especially when it involved jurisdictions from another State.

01-15-2002, 01:20 AM	#11
Dean User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: PA Posts: 132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: "X" I read somewhere that the "X" was supposed to be crossed rifles. That's why the lines are wider at the bottom of the "X". It was a Russian acceptance mark put on after "reconditioning", prior to putting the weapon into storage. Both of my K98's have that mark, and they were Russian "reworks". Dean P.S. discovered this site a few weeks ago. You folks have really been helpful!

01-15-2002, 02:15 AM	#12
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"X" sorry.....it is just an inspection or viewers mark of some type... I believe the 'crossed rifles' was just someones imagination running wild........that was an Imperial stamp, wasn't it? Orv Reichert

01-15-2002, 10:40 AM	#13
Jim Van Eldik User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: "X" Thanks Dean -- will pull out the magnifying glass. Jim

01-15-2002, 10:42 AM	#14
Jim Van Eldik User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: "X" OPPS!! Ok Orv I won't pull it out. Jim

01-15-2002, 12:56 PM	#15
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: "X" Jim, The straight legged X (sometimes in a circle) that several of you have described is usually found below the serial number on the front of the frame or on the left receiver and is definately a Russian rework mark.

01-15-2002, 02:10 PM	#16
Jim Van Eldik User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: "X" That's it. Thanks Tom!! Jim

01-15-2002, 09:10 PM	#17
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: "X" Hi Tom, That may or may not be true - it also appears on Lugers that were never in Soviet Russian hands. Also, not all of the Lugers (and P.38Ã¢??s and Kar98k rifles) imported from the CIS states have the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â. While the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â is a great deal more common on the WWII German arms imported from the CIS countries, itÃ¢??s an open question whether the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â was stamped on the arms after they were captured, or before. It could well be that the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â really is a Third Reich mark indicating the arms were condemned, that the Soviets captured the warehouses where these arms were stored prior to destruction, and the Soviets took them home and reworked them. But this is all guessing. In simple truth we donÃ¢??t know when, why, or whom the Ã¢??XÃ¢?Â was stamped. Best regards, Kyrie

01-15-2002, 11:32 PM	#18
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"X" is Russian -- rest is stricly speculation! (EOM)

01-17-2002, 07:33 PM	#19
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	It's all speculation, including Russian attribution

01-17-2002, 11:36 PM	#20
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	X mark is Russian!!!! Until a few years ago, the only guns we saw with the 'X' stamp were "Nam bring backs". [source probably USSR?] No other P38s were seen with it over the years..and, none were seen in Germany [according to my buddy Alex Kruzek] Then,when Alex went thru the cases of guns Imported from the Ukraine, he saw about 20% of them were 'X' stamped. Alex personally examined more than 3000 guns in that group. I will accept his conclusion/statement that the X mark is a Russian stamp of some type. Orv Reichert