Small piece of paper in grip/mag well

joemuley · 01-25-2011, 12:17 AM

OK, I'm new to the forum. I inherited a '41 luger and stuck it in the safe some years ago. My dad had it for ... maybe 20 years prior and I'm sure he purchased as a collector's model. I've not shot it and over the years, haven't really acknowledged it's existence until this weekend's gun cleaning day. I looked it over and had accumulated quite a bit of dust. Has some bluing worn off the butt & barrel, but no rust & in pretty good shape. Numbers match except for mag. I pulled off the grips and found this (see attached pic). If my math is right, and this piece of paper was inserted upon manufacturing, it's roughly 70 years old, but doesn't look it. I've searched high & low but haven't seen any threads on similar. It appears to me to be an inspection stamp (again, piece of paper inserted under the grip). Has anyone seen this before?

Norme · 01-25-2011, 12:22 AM

Hi Dan, Welcome to the forum. Does the gun's serial number end in 59? Regards, Norm

John Sabato · 01-25-2011, 01:17 PM

I have NEVER seen anything like this before inside a Luger... I would guess that the the #59 is the Inspector number... but that is just a guess...

The paper also seems to have holes in it that appear to resemble stitching in an accessory like a holster or magazine pouch... also just speculation...

Nice find. Congrats, and Welcome to the Lugerforum Joe.

StarOfTheWest · 01-25-2011, 01:45 PM

The eagle looks like an NSDAP, Nazi Party eagle. kind of.
Very cool and unusual!

joemuley · 01-25-2011, 03:20 PM

Yes, the serial does end in 59. It may have been attached to a holster.
Is there a tag on orig P.08 holsters?

Vlim · 01-25-2011, 04:46 PM

Hi,

Judging from the edges it was at one time sewn into or onto something. Perhaps the remnants of some sort of packaging or sealing. My first impression was that of a clothing label of some sort, but the fact that the last 2 digits seem to match the gun serial is striking.

If it was intended for ID-ing the gun, I would expect a full serial number. With only 2 digits it points more towards a part#. I doubt that it was attached to a holster.

alanint · 01-25-2011, 05:54 PM

These may also be perforations designed to separate stamps something like postage stamps prior to utilizing them for whatever purpose they were intended.

sheepherder · 01-25-2011, 06:25 PM

It almost looks like the middle of the birds wings have [curved] text in them...two words on the left; one long word on the right...I can almost make them out...but I don't read German...

dalep38 · 01-25-2011, 07:38 PM

Joe: Very interesting and unique, might I ask if your '41 has wood or black plastic looking grips because I am curious as to the small cloth piece not coming out ( loose) or jamming the action of the luger (when mag was inserted). Was it perhaps pinched between the grip and frame(sandwiched in there on one side) down a ways from the top? ..Thank You, Dale

joemuley · 01-25-2011, 10:39 PM

They're wood & yes, it was sandwiched between the grip & frame about 1/2 way down the handle. Does anyone know if a tag like this may have been attached to the holster?

alanint · 01-25-2011, 11:21 PM

More likely it belongs to the gun, since it has the last two digits of the serial number. It could not have become wedged as you found it accidentaly. It seems as if it was placed there.

Could this be some sort of one of a kind surviving factory final inspector's stamp?

suum cuique · 01-26-2011, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

It almost looks like the middle of the birds wings have [curved] text in them...two words on the left; one long word on the right...I can almost make them out...but I don't read German...

I can't identify the words or letters. What's written there?
(Bad eyes...)

Hugo Borchardt · 01-26-2011, 09:47 AM

Welcome. Nice mystery. Would love to see photos of the gun.

Reich eagle stamp on the tag makes it extremely likely to be a period placement.

Last 2 serial digits strongly suggest the tag is associated directly with the gun, so the tag is likely not something random hidden under the grips by the guns owner. Would be too much of a coincidence.

Claim tag for checking weapon in for repair? No reason for it to end up under grip. It could some type of "keep this with the gun in case or to prove" tag that the soldier put under the grip to comply.

The fact that someone bothered to place it under the grip at all is key. Repair inspection tag is indeed the best guess, as others likely would rarely or if all be encountered because they were discarded during subsequent routine gun cleaning. Assumption would be that the signature under the "59" is the inspectors illegible best guess "J. N. Tal".

It surely was hand torn from a perforated sheet of same, as it has 3 torn perforated edges, and a forth perforated edge on the right side which is not torn and you can see that the flat non-perforated right edge was the right edge of the entire bordered sheet.

I can't tell from the photo, is it about the size of 3 regular US postage stamps? I'm sure you would have noted if there was anything on the obverse?

In other words, Colonel Mustard did it in the study with the lead pipe.

Thanks for sharing!!!

LugerVern · 01-26-2011, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suum cuique

I can't identify the words or letters. What's written there?
(Bad eyes...)

I think there are words there too, a few letters can be made out but not enough to tell what the word means.

Vern

suum cuique · 01-27-2011, 08:26 AM

in my opinion it makes no sense to use a piece of paper with an eagle as a receipt or service/repair tag. This looks way too "offical"... But most disturbing is the way how the number 59 was written. It is unlikely that somebody in the 1940's wrote especially the "9" that way. If you read old German letters or documents, I'm sure, you would never find a "9" like this. This "9" on this tag was written like an upside down "6". In Germany, they write the 9 in another way: First they make a small circle, counter-clockwise, then they write the "tail" downward. You can clearly see, that the ink pen was placed at about "3 o'clock" of the circle, then turned clockwise around and then downwards. (Ink spot) The "signature" looks like the initials NW.
I guess it's a fake.

Curly1 · 01-27-2011, 08:39 AM

Someone other than a German could have written it who was in the service of the Germans could it not? Did all Euros make the nines the same way? Can you be sure?

suum cuique · 01-27-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curly1

Someone other than a German could have written it who was in the service of the Germans could it not? Did all Euros make the nines the same way? Can you be sure?

Yep, most likely somebody else than a German, and:
after 1945.
And hidden underneath the grips? Come on....
I guess a former owner put this tag underneath the grips to be found exactly there. Where else can you hide a piece of paper? And why hiding? Maybe a gag of the old owner.

And Joe states:
"If my math is right, and this piece of paper was inserted upon manufacturing, it's roughly 70 years old, but doesn't look it." He doubt it, too.
Just my 2 cents.

alanint · 01-27-2011, 08:49 AM

Who would bother to fake something so esoteric and hide it under the grips of only one gun that we know of?

If I were going to fake something like this it would read "inventory of the Berghof" or something similar.

sheepherder · 01-27-2011, 09:48 AM

Maybe a WW II evidence tag from some legal proceeding involving this Luger???

Vlim · 01-27-2011, 11:09 AM

I've seen a lot of nines, handwritten ones from about 1850 - current times, and all shapes and sizes go. So I'm not supporting the '9 is not German' theory

I also write my nines as upside down sixes and I'm very European.

01-25-2011, 12:17 AM	#1
joemuley New User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Small piece of paper in grip/mag well OK, I'm new to the forum. I inherited a '41 luger and stuck it in the safe some years ago. My dad had it for ... maybe 20 years prior and I'm sure he purchased as a collector's model. I've not shot it and over the years, haven't really acknowledged it's existence until this weekend's gun cleaning day. I looked it over and had accumulated quite a bit of dust. Has some bluing worn off the butt & barrel, but no rust & in pretty good shape. Numbers match except for mag. I pulled off the grips and found this (see attached pic). If my math is right, and this piece of paper was inserted upon manufacturing, it's roughly 70 years old, but doesn't look it. I've searched high & low but haven't seen any threads on similar. It appears to me to be an inspection stamp (again, piece of paper inserted under the grip). Has anyone seen this before?

01-25-2011, 01:17 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I have NEVER seen anything like this before inside a Luger... I would guess that the the #59 is the Inspector number... but that is just a guess... The paper also seems to have holes in it that appear to resemble stitching in an accessory like a holster or magazine pouch... also just speculation... Nice find. Congrats, and Welcome to the Lugerforum Joe. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-25-2011, 01:45 PM	#4
StarOfTheWest User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: East Texas, CSA Posts: 208 Thanks: 81 Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts	The eagle looks like an NSDAP, Nazi Party eagle. kind of. Very cool and unusual! __________________ Sorry, I take that back. I have no problem with the horse you rode in on.

01-25-2011, 06:25 PM	#8
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	It almost looks like the middle of the birds wings have [curved] text in them...two words on the left; one long word on the right...I can almost make them out...but I don't read German... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-25-2011, 07:38 PM	#9
dalep38 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Southeast USA Posts: 60 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Joe: Very interesting and unique, might I ask if your '41 has wood or black plastic looking grips because I am curious as to the small cloth piece not coming out ( loose) or jamming the action of the luger (when mag was inserted). Was it perhaps pinched between the grip and frame(sandwiched in there on one side) down a ways from the top? ..Thank You, Dale __________________ Always looking for early P.38's Original finish collector grade ,Zeros,480,ac only,40 added,ac40,ac41's and mags

01-25-2011, 12:22 AM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Dan, Welcome to the forum. Does the gun's serial number end in 59? Regards, Norm

01-25-2011, 03:20 PM	#5
joemuley New User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yes, the serial does end in 59. It may have been attached to a holster. Is there a tag on orig P.08 holsters?

01-25-2011, 04:46 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Judging from the edges it was at one time sewn into or onto something. Perhaps the remnants of some sort of packaging or sealing. My first impression was that of a clothing label of some sort, but the fact that the last 2 digits seem to match the gun serial is striking. If it was intended for ID-ing the gun, I would expect a full serial number. With only 2 digits it points more towards a part#. I doubt that it was attached to a holster.

01-25-2011, 05:54 PM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	These may also be perforations designed to separate stamps something like postage stamps prior to utilizing them for whatever purpose they were intended.

01-25-2011, 10:39 PM	#10
joemuley New User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	They're wood & yes, it was sandwiched between the grip & frame about 1/2 way down the handle. Does anyone know if a tag like this may have been attached to the holster?

01-25-2011, 11:21 PM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	More likely it belongs to the gun, since it has the last two digits of the serial number. It could not have become wedged as you found it accidentaly. It seems as if it was placed there. Could this be some sort of one of a kind surviving factory final inspector's stamp?

01-26-2011, 09:47 AM	#13
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 340 Thanked 133 Times in 47 Posts	Welcome. Nice mystery. Would love to see photos of the gun. Reich eagle stamp on the tag makes it extremely likely to be a period placement. Last 2 serial digits strongly suggest the tag is associated directly with the gun, so the tag is likely not something random hidden under the grips by the guns owner. Would be too much of a coincidence. Claim tag for checking weapon in for repair? No reason for it to end up under grip. It could some type of "keep this with the gun in case or to prove" tag that the soldier put under the grip to comply. The fact that someone bothered to place it under the grip at all is key. Repair inspection tag is indeed the best guess, as others likely would rarely or if all be encountered because they were discarded during subsequent routine gun cleaning. Assumption would be that the signature under the "59" is the inspectors illegible best guess "J. N. Tal". It surely was hand torn from a perforated sheet of same, as it has 3 torn perforated edges, and a forth perforated edge on the right side which is not torn and you can see that the flat non-perforated right edge was the right edge of the entire bordered sheet. I can't tell from the photo, is it about the size of 3 regular US postage stamps? I'm sure you would have noted if there was anything on the obverse? In other words, Colonel Mustard did it in the study with the lead pipe. Thanks for sharing!!! __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

01-27-2011, 08:26 AM	#15
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	in my opinion it makes no sense to use a piece of paper with an eagle as a receipt or service/repair tag. This looks way too "offical"... But most disturbing is the way how the number 59 was written. It is unlikely that somebody in the 1940's wrote especially the "9" that way. If you read old German letters or documents, I'm sure, you would never find a "9" like this. This "9" on this tag was written like an upside down "6". In Germany, they write the 9 in another way: First they make a small circle, counter-clockwise, then they write the "tail" downward. You can clearly see, that the ink pen was placed at about "3 o'clock" of the circle, then turned clockwise around and then downwards. (Ink spot) The "signature" looks like the initials NW. I guess it's a fake. __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

01-27-2011, 08:39 AM	#16
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,242 Thanks: 117 Thanked 714 Times in 371 Posts	Someone other than a German could have written it who was in the service of the Germans could it not? Did all Euros make the nines the same way? Can you be sure? __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

01-27-2011, 08:49 AM	#18
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Who would bother to fake something so esoteric and hide it under the grips of only one gun that we know of? If I were going to fake something like this it would read "inventory of the Berghof" or something similar.

01-27-2011, 09:48 AM	#19
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Maybe a WW II evidence tag from some legal proceeding involving this Luger??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-27-2011, 11:09 AM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	I've seen a lot of nines, handwritten ones from about 1850 - current times, and all shapes and sizes go. So I'm not supporting the '9 is not German' theory I also write my nines as upside down sixes and I'm very European.